jl/jlu = hawkgirl/shayera overkill show

[Wolf Boy2]

Okay, I've had enough of this and this sort of passive hostility that you have Akomoron. He never said England didn't have JL and JLU. We've had them for ages as well. In fact, we got episodes before the US on the JLU front as I recall.

True dat. A lot of the episodes that were on YouTube available for illegal d******* were taped from the UK. So actaully, a lot of Americans like me got a (albiet, dishonest) sneak peek at JLU because of the UK.

As for "oriental", I'm happily educated. However this isn't sort of hick thing, I'm an educated liberal English man, and I'd never realised it could be potentially be considered outdated.

As an uneducated American hick, I find your tone condescennding and arrogent. Dem's fightin' werds. Don't make me git mah Pappy's shotgun.

 

[Aldrius]

Actually, akomoron is right. Sort of.

My white, soda cracker self learns something every day.

From http://www.dictionary.com:

Usage Note: Asian is now strongly preferred in place of Oriental for persons native to Asia or descended from an Asian people. The usual objection to Oriental—meaning "eastern"—is that it identifies Asian countries and peoples in terms of their location relative to Europe. However, this objection is not generally made of other Eurocentric terms such as Near and Middle Eastern. The real problem with Oriental is more likely its connotations stemming from an earlier era when Europeans viewed the regions east of the Mediterranean as exotic lands full of romance and intrigue, the home of despotic empires and inscrutable customs. At the least these associations can give Oriental a dated feel, and as a noun in contemporary contexts (as in the first Oriental to be elected from the district) it is now widely taken to be offensive. However, Oriental should not be thought of as an ethnic slur to be avoided in all situations. As with Asiatic, its use other than as an ethnonym, in phrases such as Oriental cuisine or Oriental medicine, is not usually considered objectionable.
​

Okay, how on earth am I supposed to refer to... asia-... easte-... ori-... GAH! Why must everything be racial? =[

Anyway, I still think Superman was in the show too much. *Shifty glance* He should have been delegated to cameos... and maybe background shots.

 

[S.C.B]

Anyway, I still think Superman was in the show too much. *Shifty glance* He should have been delegated to cameos... and maybe background shots.

Okay, I was getting a feeling of nostalgia from this thread before, but now I really feel like I'm in a time warp.

I'll contribute. The year is 2001, and Justice League has just premiered...

Superman looks too old! He sounds wierd! He's too wimpy! And John Stewart is boring! Bring on Hal Jordan! HawkgirlWTF? Aquaman would have been better!

 

[Temple Fugate]

Superman looks too old! He sounds wierd! He's too wimpy! And John Stewart is boring! Bring on Hal Jordan! HawkgirlWTF? Aquaman would have been better!

Don't forget about Batman's cowl. Those points are too long!

Funny thing about fandom sometimes...there is little attention paid to the evolving experience of watching the show. It's so easy to concentrate on the things that we like or that we hate in the here and now, that we don't take the time to reflect on how we got to this point. Opinions almost always change over time, especially while the show is in production, yet it usually seems like we go about our discussions behaving as if we've always felt exactly the way we do now about everything.

 

[SuperBat]

Superman looks too old! He sounds wierd! He's too wimpy! And John Stewart is boring! Bring on Hal Jordan! HawkgirlWTF? Aquaman would have been better!

OMG! Barbera got shot?!

Sorry. Backed up a little too far.

 

[Aldrius]

Superman looked too old in Batman beyond... sounded weird too. What happened to Tim Daly's voice!? Also, so wimpy. How could an alien take control of him!?!

 

[Wolf Boy2]

Registration is closed on the World's Finest's forums! I can only discuss JL on MySpace boards -- NO FAIR!!!

Oh, wait. That was MY gripe during the original run of JL. Sorry.

Seriously, though, I wish like anything I couldve been on here during the good ol' days. I came in to Toonzone near the tail end of JLU season 3, but I've since become somewhat of a staple. I feel like the green Power Ranger.

Now, back on topic...

Catwoman's skin is pale white! Jim Gordon looks sickly! Barbara is too cartoony and always smiling! Batman should have the yellow oval back! Tim Drake sucks, we liked Dick better! The Joker needs red lips, dammit! Clayface should've stayed dead! The Mad Hatter is too short! Mr Freeze looks weird and his story is effed up! Nora should've stayed dead!

 

[Aldrius]

Well... now some of those I still agree with.

But to add to the list!!

Um...

Wally West is too slow?

 

[Wolf Boy2]

Well... now some of those I still agree with.

But to add to the list!!

Um...

Wally West is too slow?

But on the bright side... maybe now he can get a date.

 

[akomoron]

Okay, I've had enough of this and this sort of passive hostility that you have Akomoron. He never said England didn't have JL and JLU. We've had them for ages as well. In fact, we got episodes before the US on the JLU front as I recall.

Warnings will be winging their way unless you start being a little less reactive. You can't spout the right to opinion and then side remark that the others are wrong - that's just a sort of patronizing arrogance that will just ignite threads and ruin this board. The staff will not tolerate it.

As for "oriental", I'm happily educated. However this isn't sort of hick thing, I'm an educated liberal English man, and I'd never realised it could be potentially be considered outdated.

Okay, being this is still a debatable issue, I'll leave the thread open a little longer, but if it gets antagonistic again, we'll be locking it and speaking to any members involved in negative posting privately.

Thank you.

oriental is not potentially outdated, it is outdated and racist. i think you should engage in fairplay. im being called on left and right for the tone of my posts, my spelling/shortcuts (sheesh, I dont care). and yet wolfboy who said oriental and even confirmed that it is offensive (but didnt apologize) was not taken up to task for what he said. as someone who is asian i have every right to say it is offensive that he made an oriental joke.

in my defense i never attacked anyone on such a personal level. the only one im really attacking is shayera, a character i rightfully despise. granted anyones personal attacks against me dont affect me. but i do feel like im being called upon because many members are pro-shayera. thats just my theory.

 

[S.C.B]

Aww... and this thread was getting fun, too... *sigh*.

in my defense i never attacked anyone on such a personal level. the only one im really attacking is shayera, a character i rightfully despise. granted anyones personal attacks against me dont affect me. but i do feel like im being called upon because many members are pro-shayera. thats just my theory.

James didn't say you were attacking anyone on a personal level. He said to be 'a little less reactive', as in 'consider that those who disagree with you are not attacking you'.

And people aren't 'calling on you' because you don't like Shayera. It's because you state your opinions as facts, and it can get a bit frustrating (why open a topic for discussion when you just want everyone to agree with you?). Consider that people can defend Shayera without the whole message board being 'pro-Shayera' and against you. It's not your opinions about Shayera that get everyone riled up, it's how you argue that opinion.

As for the oriental issue, Wolf Boy2 didn't know when he first said it that Oriental was offensive. I know plenty of asian people who don't mind the term myself (hell, I've seen restaurants selling 'Oriental Cuisine', so it can't be that bad), so Wolf Boy2 can't be blamed for saying something he had no idea you would take so personally.

But now, back to the fun stuff.

Riddler's costume is stupid! Nightwing has a mulletWTF?!

 

[James]

oriental is not potentially outdated, it is outdated and racist. i think you should engage in fairplay.

im being called on left and right for the tone of my posts, my spelling/shortcuts (sheesh, I dont care).

Your tone is antagonistic. Even now your demanding an apology from people when quite clearly what they said was never intended to insult you. You don't deserve an apology given these people didn't say it to insult you and quite honestly your manner makes me question if you are generally offended or if you are looking for a reason to get some moral high ground.

The fact Wolf Boy has admitted and brought up proof that the term might be deemed outdated or inappropriate is IMO more than enough to show he has the guts to admit when he's wrong.

In fact, you are the one who should be apologising for the "well I'm not surprised given where you are from" line - which was intentionally insulting to the member. His was anthropological mistake given we in the West largely have no idea "oriental" is an insulting term and he even admitted to discovering this could be a valid argument. You however make an intentionally insulting remark about his country based on a film about anthropological humour.

Come to the US or Europe you'll find people will refer to Oriental with no realisation it's offensive. We appreciate the heads up on this as I have no interest in offending anyone when there was no intention to, but drop the righteousness.

and yet wolfboy who said oriental and even confirmed that it is offensive (but didnt apologize) was not taken up to task for what he said. as someone who is asian i have every right to say it is offensive that he made an oriental joke.

Not when you know that he didn't make an oriental joke. We respect that it may have offended you and it's been quite clear the member in question understands that. This is a US message board, where what is offensive to people outside the US isn't quite as clear to many of it's natives. They are willing to learn but I see no reason why they should be chastised for saying something they had no idea was wrong. He's admitted you are right having gone to the trouble to see if there was any validity in what you said and I think you thereby have the pound of flesh you seek.

A little empathy please.

in my defense i never attacked anyone on such a personal level. the only one im really attacking is shayera, a character i rightfully despise.

I'm glad otherwise I would have had to warn you for doing so. As for Shayera - you "rightfully" despise? That's an odd term - it implies your hatred is righteous; that this isn't a debate but an attempt to teach people given you believe your opinion isn't just opinion, but fact. Now, this could be turn of phrase, but it's this sort of comment that is causing ... problems. People don't feel you are here to debate opinion, but dictate your fact. You do that a lot, and people don't react well when ANYONE does that! Now, again, it's your call whether you approach your debating like that, but don't be surprised when it doesn't make any friends.

granted anyones personal attacks against me dont affect me. but i do feel like im being called upon because many members are pro-shayera. thats just my theory.

I would say it's more how you present your opinion rather than people being pro-Shayera. I'm not pro any JL member. Honestly, I don't care enough to bother and I can see why people get a little irritable - because as I said, you are very antagonistic and defensive - you can be very sharp and cutting with others, and very defensive about yourself. I mean, come on, when you label everyone "pro-Shayera" because they have issues with your standpoint, how do you expect people to react? That's just insulting, implying that the only reason people don't agree is because they are just frantically into Shayera and won't listen to anything else.

This is your choice, but I would honestly recommend you look at how you are presenting yourself here before labelling others. Granted, I'm not happy that people have risen to frustration and I don't condone anyone getting personal (we will speak privately to anyone who does), but I do feel there is a great deal you could do in your approach to debating that would get a less negative response.

 

[Robin]

I hate to say it but its users like akomoron and how they flaunt their opinion that make me not post here anymore. This used to be a fun board where the discussion was intelligent and strong but it has since become a mix of nitpicking, complaining and bullying comments. If someone doesn't like a character that's fine but their opinion is no greater than anyone else's and they shouldn't act as such. I have no real interest in Shayera but I'm not going to go overboard and call her a slut and whore. Not only is it pointless but it's ridiculous. Everything is taken so seriously here that we're forgetting to have fun. Shayera is a fine character and the creative team really made her into a well rounded and real character. She seemed more real to me than pretty much the rest of the league during JL and JLU.

 

[Wolf Boy2]

oriental is not potentially outdated, it is outdated and racist. i think you should engage in fairplay. im being called on left and right for the tone of my posts, my spelling/shortcuts (sheesh, I dont care). and yet wolfboy who said oriental and even confirmed that it is offensive (but didnt apologize) was not taken up to task for what he said. as someone who is asian i have every right to say it is offensive that he made an oriental joke.

As I recall you made this statement that you were surprised that someone hadn't insulted your race yet. Which was silly for 2 reasons:
1. At that time we had no way of knowing what your race was
2. For all you know, we could've all been Asian. There are Asians who live in the UK and US... and there are other races in the Phillipines. Someone's location does not imply their race. You could've been a US soldier, a white bussinessman, religious missionary, tourist... the list goes one. How was I to know?

Hey, I know! I'll just insult all the races! Sure to get you that way.

A white guy, a black guy, an oriental guy, a native American guy, a Pacific Islander, a Jew, an Aborignal, an Eskimo and a Klingon walk into a bar....

This was not a legitimate attack leveled at any individual, but a satire of racial slurs in general. "Klingon" isn't even a real race. My point that was when you cannot see a person, the so-called "racial differences" don't exist. Which domonstrates how insanely stupid race-jokes are.

I'm very sorry that you didn't get the joke.

in my defense i never attacked anyone on such a personal level.

Ehem.

oriental? not surprised u used the term considering how viriginia is. i mean I did watch borat...........................

Now, back to the topic. Does anyone remember what Shayera's dream was in "Only a Dream"? All I can find on The World's Finest is this screengrab:

Besides being an obvious homage to MOTP, I can't really get any hidden messages out of this.

It seems that the major character exploration episodes in JL pretty much omitted Hawkgirl. I know why, but still. We hardly got to see any Shayera development until "Comfort and Joy" and "Starcrossed." And the vignettes we got in JLU were spinoffs from "Starcrossed."

So how can anyone call this overkill? I think it was "underkill."

 

[Arrakhat]

Shayera dreamed that she was trapped in a coffin, and I believe that it began to crush her. Either that or it was just her claustraphobia. In the end though, she was the only one who failed to break out of her dream through her own mental strength, if I remember correctly.

 

[Wolf Boy2]

Shayera dreamed that she was trapped in a coffin, and I believe that it began to crush her. Either that or it was just her claustraphobia. In the end though, she was the only one who failed to break out of her dream through her own mental strength, if I remember correctly.

Yeah, it wasn't very revealing or introspective. Unlike, say, Superman. Also I'm really glad that Batman didn't have ANOTHER dream (becuase he already had one on BTAS and would get another, albiet brief, dream on JLU).

 

[Temple Fugate]

Remember, though, that MM had trouble breaching her mind. He said there was some kind of barrier preventing him from getting in. That could be the first indication of her closeted knowledge of Thanagar and her mission.

 

[Arrakhat]

Remember, though, that MM had trouble breaching her mind. He said there was some kind of barrier preventing him from getting in. That could be the first indication of her closeted knowledge of Thanagar and her mission.

I thought that was because Dr. Destiny was blocking J'onn from the others' minds as the episode progressed. He was ineffective at stopping J'onn in Superman's dream, managed to block J'onn from Flash's mind fairly quickly, and then, from what I gathered, completely blocked Shayera's mind. I thought maybe Destiny was more powerful when he had fewer minds to manipulate, and thus could completely trap Shayera.

 

[SuperBat]

I thought that was because Dr. Destiny was blocking J'onn from the others' minds as the episode progressed. He was ineffective at stopping J'onn in Superman's dream, managed to block J'onn from Flash's mind fairly quickly, and then, from what I gathered, completely blocked Shayera's mind. I thought maybe Destiny was more powerful when he had fewer minds to manipulate, and thus could completely trap Shayera.

Actually, J'onn mentions in "Starcrossed" that he could never read Shayera's mind. ("Twilight" stands out. I think Hawkgirl was afraid he might.) He says that the Thanagarians are somehow immune to his psychic powers. That's why in "Only a Dream," he says, "There seems to be a barrier around her mind." Even GL couldn't get through it. So it didn't come off to me as her mental weakness. None of them would've made it out without J'onn. But he couldn't help Shayera, so she would've been doomed without Batman and "Are You Sleeping, Brother John?"

 

[The Penguin]

Superman looked too old in Batman beyond... sounded weird too. What happened to Tim Daly's voice!? Also, so wimpy. How could an alien take control of him!?!

Not sure if you'e just joking, but what happened to Tim Daly's voice in Batman Beyond was that it wasn't his voice at all, but Christopher McDonald's. He voiced Jor-El in S:TAS and later in JLU.