jl/jlu = hawkgirl/shayera overkill show

[Antiyonder]

the exchange was basically:

sha: you enjoyed that a little too much
gl:she broke my heart you know.
sha: likewise

The intent was basically for humor. Lighten up once in awhile.

And you never did answer that question S.C.B asked.
How else was her counterpart suppose taunt her?

 

[akomoron]

The intent was basically for humor. Lighten up once in awhile.

And you never did answer that question S.C.B asked.
How else was her counterpart suppose taunt her?

oh that. simple: that scene shoul've been scrapped! jlord flash taunting flash was a nice treat since they never showed jlord flash until divided we fall. jlord supes vs. supes was expected since supes was struggling with the threat/power of jlu which is a huge part of the cadmus arc.

but jlord sha taunting sha about thanagarian invasion was extraneous, completely unnecessary and further proof of too much sha. starcrossed was so last season ago yet here it is thrown in our faces again. hunters moon actually was a nice epilogue to starcrossed. it semi-resolved things and featured vixen's numerous powers (overshadowing sha). but starcrossed should've been left there.

i would much rather have jlord mm taunt mm by saying how his adopted home now hates him or jlord than more sha. he was barely used in divided we fall.

 

[Aldrius]

if it isnt in some way a psychic realm then how could mm sense him there?

...because he's a telepath and he can read minds?

how was that about the league? it was about their romance again. the writers should've moved on from this but they kept beating this dead horse until ancient history, which was the last episode basically until alive/destroyer finale.

"Do you think there's a single person on thanagar or earth who doesn't despise us?"

As for the romance, it's important. Granted it got kindof sickening when they had the whole love square... but that was more because Katar Hol was so dull.

Vixen and Hawkgirl's exchanges with eachother were hilariously cool. =P

IMO of course.

 

[neogothboy74]

Unexpected

When Justice League started I was a bit shocked that Hawkgirl was chosen for the roster. I wondered about Hawkman & Aquaman myself. I hadn't seen most of Superman at that time, so I didn't know that Flash & Aquaman, and indeed the Green Lanterns had been seen before; I was wondering where Hal Jordan was; lol. As it turned out, I think the the writers did a fantastic job with almost all of the characters. I liked John Stewart. I liked their take on Aquaman; it was so different that I what I'd known as a child. And what they did with Hawkgirl was stunning. I mean, before JL/JLU she was just the female version of Hawkman, and after...well she was her own woman, so to speak. And even Hawkman turned up eventually.

I don't think Hawkgirl was used too much, though I can imagine it seeming so if I hated the character. I, personally loved when episodes referenced previous adventures and experiences. I love continuity, and that's what made me a fan of the D.C.A.U., so Hawkgirl & Green Lantern talking about Starcrossed, even for a moment, was one of the many highlights of Divided We Fall for me. That to me, just meant that my investment in those characters, and the stories that the writers chose to tell about them, had pay offs, and that was a great feeling. That was something special for me, that I was instantly grateful to the writers for.

I'm sorry it wasn't like that for others. To read about people who hated those moments is really strange for me. I wish everyone could have felt as rewarded as I did...but I guess that's impossible.

Oh well.

 

[akomoron]

...because he's a telepath and he can read minds?



"Do you think there's a single person on thanagar or earth who doesn't despise us?"

As for the romance, it's important. Granted it got kindof sickening when they had the whole love square... but that was more because Katar Hol was so dull.

Vixen and Hawkgirl's exchanges with eachother were hilariously cool. =P

IMO of course.

why must u resort to sarcasm? did i insult u personally? no. im sharing my opinion on this mb yet heres someone again resorting to sarcasm.........

geez this mb is really protective of sha. my pt. is sha vs. jlord sha shouldn't have been focused on. the whole "do you think anyone on earth or thanagar despises us?" shouldn't have been there IMO.

yes mm's a telepath thats why he sensed flash. thus he should've pulled him out NOT sha.

the only reason kator hol was dull was because they had to reconfigure him to accomodate all the sha story arcs. in the comics hawkman is the star/aggressive fighter. in jlu hes a lovesick weirdo brought on to add further complications to a tired love story. i would've rather they scrapped hawkman in the love quadrangle and developed arrow/canary instead.

 

[Antiyonder]

why must u resort to sarcasm? did i insult u personally? no. im sharing my opinion on this mb yet heres someone again resorting to sarcasm.........

geez this mb is really protective of sha. my pt. is sha vs. jlord sha shouldn't have been focused on. the whole "do you think anyone on earth or thanagar despises us?" shouldn't have been there IMO.

Sharing your opinion is fine, but you seem to only share complaints. Since posting on toonzone, have you even commented on something that you do like?

 

[Wolf Boy2]

Yeah, Superman only got 54 episodes in his OWN SERIES.

Batman only got 112 episodes.

I can see why people would be upset that John and Shayera got so much screentime in JL/JLU.

I am fast becoming annoyed with akomoron's posts. Saying that Shayera had better fight scenes is just silly. In another thread akomoron commented that John made silly-looking constructs... which is funny becuase most fans complained about the LACK of constructs. You just can't please some people.

Shayera made an excellent foil for Wally, John and Diana. She was the only one who could've engaged in sexual banter with Flash or held a sour grudge against Diana. Her romance with John was the only thing that kept him from being another straight-laced generic hero like Clark and Bruce. I mean, a high speed Marine-turned-superhero... that's not very original. And someone who plays by the book would get along fine with the Big 3. A GL/WW romance would've been impossible.

Furthermore, a GL/Hawkgirl romance was the LAST thing that fans at the time were expecting. According to b.t., people were expecting Superman and Wonder Woman to get it on.

JL could not have existed without Hawkgirl. Her appearences in JLU were sparce, but meaningful. As for "Shadow of the Hawk" and "Ancient History", sure they were beating a dead horse. But really, the entire show was beating a dead horse. EVERY plot point of that season was a re-tread. The Legion of Doom story arc was a re-tread of "Injustice for All" and "Secret Society." The central characters of both stories (Luthor and Grodd) were central once again. Luthor's whole season 3 story was just recycling material from "Divided we Fall." "Patriot Act" was a re-tread of Cadmus material. "Alive" and "Destroyer" were re-treads of S:TAS material, revisting a story concluded in "Twilight" (while showing us a big superhero fight like the one which happened off-camera in "Starcrossed").

Season 3 was nothing more than a "fun bonus." The show ended with "Epilogue." Just think of Season 3 as finding a 5th chicken nugget in a 4-piece box.

 

[Aldrius]

the only reason kator hol was dull was because they had to reconfigure him to accomodate all the sha story arcs. in the comics hawkman is the star/aggressive fighter. in jlu hes a lovesick weirdo brought on to add further complications to a tired love story. i would've rather they scrapped hawkman in the love quadrangle and developed arrow/canary instead.

He was dull because he was un-necessary. I found him more interesting in JLU than I ever have in the few comics I've read.

The problem with him was they felt the NEED to include him and the ancient egyptian stuff. I always hated that they added that. Moderately realistic space alien don't mix well with re-incarnation.... >_<.

why must u resort to sarcasm? did i insult u personally? no. im sharing my opinion on this mb yet heres someone again resorting to sarcasm.........

...Where was I being sarcastic? All I said was that he could sense him because he's a telepath... not because the speed force has some link to Jonn... and just because Jonn sensed him doesn't mean that he should have pulled him out.

Wally and Jonn have next to no connection as characters.

Out of the others, I'd say either John or Shayera were the closest to the flash, and it really wouldn't be fitting for John to pull him out.

 

[akomoron]

He was dull because he was un-necessary. I found him more interesting in JLU than I ever have in the few comics I've read.

The problem with him was they felt the NEED to include him and the ancient egyptian stuff. I always hated that they added that. Moderately realistic space alien don't mix well with re-incarnation.... >_<.

...Where was I being sarcastic? All I said was that he could sense him because he's a telepath... not because the speed force has some link to Jonn... and just because Jonn sensed him doesn't mean that he should have pulled him out.

Wally and Jonn have next to no connection as characters.

Out of the others, I'd say either John or Shayera were the closest to the flash, and it really wouldn't be fitting for John to pull him out.

u can keep insisting that it was fitting for sha to pull him out, but for me it was and still is ridiculous. it should've been gl or mm. its almost as ridiculous as all the things nth metal can do. first it disrupts magic/spells. then it can stop interdimensional teleportation (gentleman ghost). what's next? it can control minds? just so i understand ur post, its ridiculous for you to have kator hol be an alien/reincarnated being, but its ok for sha?

 

[akomoron]

Yeah, Superman only got 54 episodes in his OWN SERIES.

Batman only got 112 episodes.

I can see why people would be upset that John and Shayera got so much screentime in JL/JLU.

I am fast becoming annoyed with akomoron's posts. Saying that Shayera had better fight scenes is just silly. In another thread akomoron commented that John made silly-looking constructs... which is funny becuase most fans complained about the LACK of constructs. You just can't please some people.

Shayera made an excellent foil for Wally, John and Diana. She was the only one who could've engaged in sexual banter with Flash or held a sour grudge against Diana. Her romance with John was the only thing that kept him from being another straight-laced generic hero like Clark and Bruce. I mean, a high speed Marine-turned-superhero... that's not very original. And someone who plays by the book would get along fine with the Big 3. A GL/WW romance would've been impossible.

Furthermore, a GL/Hawkgirl romance was the LAST thing that fans at the time were expecting. According to b.t., people were expecting Superman and Wonder Woman to get it on.

JL could not have existed without Hawkgirl. Her appearences in JLU were sparce, but meaningful. As for "Shadow of the Hawk" and "Ancient History", sure they were beating a dead horse. But really, the entire show was beating a dead horse. EVERY plot point of that season was a re-tread. The Legion of Doom story arc was a re-tread of "Injustice for All" and "Secret Society." The central characters of both stories (Luthor and Grodd) were central once again. Luthor's whole season 3 story was just recycling material from "Divided we Fall." "Patriot Act" was a re-tread of Cadmus material. "Alive" and "Destroyer" were re-treads of S:TAS material, revisting a story concluded in "Twilight" (while showing us a big superhero fight like the one which happened off-camera in "Starcrossed").

Season 3 was nothing more than a "fun bonus." The show ended with "Epilogue." Just think of Season 3 as finding a 5th chicken nugget in a 4-piece box.

Of course JL could have existed without hawkgirl. As long as the big 3: Supes Bats and WW are there then the rest are basically supporting players.

Legion of Doom was not beating a dead horse. it was an excellent expansion of the villains roster in response to JLU being so powerful/organized. It made excelent sense continuity-wise to have Grodd form it. I loved his sales pitch to Luthor. And then blackmailing him with the brainiac chip was priceless. the power struggles within the secret society made them more compelling. and the base in the swamp being an homage to superfriends was a nice trip down 80s childhood memory lane.

as for patriot act it was a nice epilogue to cadmus. i never bought wallers sudden ok attitude towards the league right after divided we fall so it was nice for gen. ellig to drink that serum. however patriot act as an episode was the lamest of season 3 jlu. batman and steel should've been there.

as for destroyer, it was just a big showcase of everyone powers for me w/o anything substanital going on. it would've been better had some members died but thats another post.

 

[Aldrius]

u can keep insisting that it was fitting for sha to pull him out, but for me it was and still is ridiculous. it should've been gl or mm. its almost as ridiculous as all the things nth metal can do. first it disrupts magic/spells. then it can stop interdimensional teleportation (gentleman ghost). what's next? it can control minds? just so i understand ur post, its ridiculous for you to have kator hol be an alien/reincarnated being, but its ok for sha?

Perhaps you could give a better reason for Jonn to pull him out than that he sensed him and I wouldn't be so dead-set on disagreeing with you.

I don't think John could have, but that's more of a personal opinion... it's not really in his personality to reach out for Wally I'd say. He's not confident enough in his emotional state to do so.

--

No it was ridiculous to link the two hawk origin stories together. For Shayera or Katar.

Shayera's backstory was fine... and Hro Talak worked as a more interesting Hawkman than Hawkman ever was. Why the need for the ancient egyptian stuff? Not that I didn't like the ancient egyptian stuff, it was more the linking of the two concepts together.

 

[S.C.B]

anyway it seems like this mb has many sha-fans so my posts must be sacrieligious..............

You're just pulling stuff out of thin air now. You say you hate Shayera, and when people disagree with you you imply we're obsessive 'sha-fans' who consider any word against her 'sacreligious'.

I just think you need to be a bit more objective, is all.

oh that. simple: that scene shoul've been scrapped!

Out of curiousity, what would you have had Shayera do in 'Divided We Fall'? Die?

 

[akomoron]

You're just pulling stuff out of thin air now. You say you hate Shayera, and when people disagree with you you imply we're obsessive 'sha-fans' who consider any word against her 'sacreligious'.

I just think you need to be a bit more objective, is all.



Out of curiousity, what would you have had Shayera do in 'Divided We Fall'? Die?

that would've been great. one can dream. she should've just fought lexiac and creepy, jlord hawkgirl. she shouldnt have pulled wally out of the speed force realm and she shouldn't have talked to gl about their tired romance. divided we fall should've really been about supes, bats, ww, flash (since he was barely used in jlu 1 and 2) and mm (since he was stuck in the watchtower giving orders and only fought the annihilator).

 

[Temple Fugate]

Season 3 was nothing more than a "fun bonus." The show ended with "Epilogue." Just think of Season 3 as finding a 5th chicken nugget in a 4-piece box.

That's the best description of season 3 I've ever heard.

geez this mb is really protective of sha.

We're trying to appeal to your sense of rational thought. You came onto this board with a visible, seething, self-professed hatred of Hawkgirl. There are plenty of HG haters on this board, don't get us wrong, but there is something to be said for lively debate and conflicting opinions. We have as much right to dispute your point of view as you have to offer it in the first place.

Now this can be done WITHOUT sarcasm. In fact most of the criticism here seems to be very well-founded and almost totally non-confrontational. Just because people are disagreeing with you doesn't mean they're attacking you.

Simply put: Calm down a little.

 

[akomoron]

That's the best description of season 3 I've ever heard.

We're trying to appeal to your sense of rational thought. You came onto this board with a visible, seething, self-professed hatred of Hawkgirl. There are plenty of HG haters on this board, don't get us wrong, but there is something to be said for lively debate and conflicting opinions. We have as much right to dispute your point of view as you have to offer it in the first place.

Now this can be done WITHOUT sarcasm. In fact most of the criticism here seems to be very well-founded and almost totally non-confrontational. Just because people are disagreeing with you doesn't mean they're attacking you.

Simply put: Calm down a little.

excuse me but im the one being attacked not the other way around. some guy even said i make no sense, another one sarcastically commented abt mm being psychic, u told me not to use shortcuts w/c was very condescending, one guy said i watched the show with sunglasses on, etc............. i wouldnt be surprised if someone insulted my race. anyway............

 

[Aldrius]

another one sarcastically commented abt mm being psychic

For the last time. No I didn't.

one guy said i watched the show with sunglasses on

All I meant was that you seem to have a particular bias towards Shayera (would you deny that? I mean really.). I don't know why I used the term sunglasses, but yeah. (You know... like rose-coloured glasses except sunglasses are dark? >_>;; Bah, whatever.)

 

[akomoron]

For the last time. No I didn't.



All I meant was that you seem to have a particular bias towards Shayera (would you deny that? I mean really.). I don't know why I used the term sunglasses, but yeah. (You know... like rose-coloured glasses except sunglasses are dark? >_>;; Bah, whatever.)

i think my original post proved exactly why the character is disgusting. anyway on to other topics, unless i have to defend myself yet again............

 

[S.C.B]

i think my original post proved exactly why the character is disgusting. anyway on to other topics, unless i have to defend myself yet again............

'Disgusting'? Come now, Shayera's a nice gal. She's hardly worthy of that title.

And how do you mean 'defend yourself'? Do you mean your opinion about Shayera? Because the whole point of posting a thread is to spark discussion, and that includes those who may not agree with you.

And if you mean people are actually attacking you personally... I'll have to go with Temple Fugate and say calm down a bit. No-one's got anything against you. You just seem to be a bit unwilling to listen to those who have a different opinion to yours.

 

[pixellj]

With all due respect, I'm finding it tough to understand the Shayera hatred. She alone made the series a cut above. The romance stuff is exactly the reason why I'm disappointed the show is gone. It tied so many elements together in an over-arc in ways that have little directly to do with the romance itself. I was always disappointed in shows that didn't have continuity in things like this, BTAS even does it. Talia, Phantasm, Selina- all romances that only appear when convenient for a single episode. That BW can be so moved in one episode, then out-of-sight-out-of-mind until next they meet detracts from the man behind the mask IMO.

Shayera added a personal element to the team. Everyone was actually kinda cardboard next to her. "The big three" are so set in stone that doing anything remotely off base would be cause for a riot I'm sure. GL is wound tighter than a clock. Flash is pretty much comedic relief and little else, and MM is some mystic loner that frankly I don't think the writers knew what to do with.

Starcrossed would've been flat if not for the romance hook. Just another invasion, some adversity, JL wins, roll credits.

As for divided we fall, that GL/HG exchange was frankly my favourite part of the episode. The OP starts off by saying "Is it just me or....". Well, maybe it is. Don't ask a question if you don't want an answer. If I'm sounding rude, well sorry, but when someone states an opinion as fact, then gets riled up when they're called to task, it bothers me. It says to me that my opinion somehow means less, and what I enjoy about something is "stupid".

Now, if anyone was over done in JL, it was Flash (in my opinion). Sure, he had great comedy relief, but he was essentially deadwieght. I'm glad he was the one who iced Lexiac, because up until then all he did was run around fast, chide some villain, then get hit and fall. And frankly, if this a 'fanboy' discussion, he should've been turfed out of the JL with his endorsements. Sure it was funny, but the others characters suffered character inconsistencies by permitting it to continue. as a character, he provided awesome comedy relief, as a hero, he was kinda lame. I'm only stating this to show that everyone has an opinion. by all means disagree, the discussion is great- maybe I'll learn something. But I certainly won't say my opinion is anything more than anyone else's and I certainly won't feel attacked or wounded when some disagrees.

Sorry for the long post, but I am an unashamed HG fan. She won me over, and I'll defend the character, since she provided me with great entertainment and memories of a great show.

 

[S.C.B]

Now, if anyone was over done in JL, it was Flash (in my opinion). Sure, he had great comedy relief, but he was essentially deadwieght. I'm glad he was the one who iced Lexiac, because up until then all he did was run around fast, chide some villain, then get hit and fall. And frankly, if this a 'fanboy' discussion, he should've been turfed out of the JL with his endorsements. Sure it was funny, but the others characters suffered character inconsistencies by permitting it to continue. as a character, he provided awesome comedy relief, as a hero, he was kinda lame. I'm only stating this to show that everyone has an opinion. by all means disagree, the discussion is great- maybe I'll learn something. But I certainly won't say my opinion is anything more than anyone else's and I certainly won't feel attacked or wounded when some disagrees.

I wouldn't say he was overdone; that would imply the show spent too much time developing him. But I agree that he was mostly one note for much of the show, with occasional flashes (pun absolutely intended) of heroic stuff ('A Better World', 'The Ties that Bind', 'Divided We Fall'). But the Flash's development was too sudden in 'Flash and Substance'. It would have been nice to see the move from 'cocky womaniser Flash' to 'community service, painting the neighbour's fence Flash'.

But on topic, Hawkgirl is nice.