MICHIKO TO HATCHIN - FIND IT, it's proof anime has life.
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Have you and I not been saying this for years? As I recall it was because we had this opinion in common that we became online buds in the first place.
Oh wait, this time you're kidding.
Hey, while I wouldn't mind more of it, I know it'd drive some people nuts too. Hell, my girlfriend would be upset of the lack hot anime babes, and I'm not going to start that trouble
I disagree at least with the simplistic way you're making that statement -- I don't think this necessarily reflects on real Japanese sexual morality in the way you seem to mean. We're talking about passive entertainment, not real acts. The connection between the two is not obvious.
True, I was playing it very simple relative to the actual depth of the subject matter. I figured I'd ease into the more complex stuff if need be. Thankfully, you've delivered as follows. Time to kick it like '04 and get our discussion hats on.
A part of the appeal of these idols, underage gravure models, etc. is their innocence. Fans of these books may look at these wide-eyed young girls in a sexual manner, but it's a conditioned looking that loses part of its appeal if the object is seen as dirtied by adulthood. (Further reading:
here,
and here See also: Perfect Blue!) So it's almost the opposite of pedophilia in its classical form -- a real, physical act as part of a passage into adulthood (which coincidentally was usually
homosexual anyway). The continued childlike innocence of the object is actually necessary.
Second, just look at the covers of the bestselling gravure books. They depict underage girls who just happen to have developed (often overdeveloped) sexual characteristics (see "12-year-old with F cups"
Saaya Irie). True, there are really disturbing dojinshi that depict actual children rather than adolescents, but these are not at all mainstream even in the dojin community and the market for them is as fringe in Japan as it would be in the U.S. -- it's just the more general permissiveness of Japanese society when it comes to sex that allows them to be sold in the open. So the sexual element -- at least in the widely sold books and paraphernalia -- is not pedophiliac. Enjo kosai, too, doesn't belong in an argument about pedophilia as a disorder because high schoolers are fairly sexually well developed. Enjo kosai is more of a social problem than a problem of widespread sexual deviancy.
Oh snap, this is a Colbert-level gotcha moment. Nicely done, Ben!
Yes, while you do have a large piece of the gravure model crap being centered around genetic freaks, and while the majority of enjo kosai is geared around high schoolers and always post-pubescent, the fact is there is a piece of both that connects to girls who look young/their age. Additionally, while it's not necessarily more prevalent in terms of actual offense rates, the cultural permissiveness does allow have it to have a greater and more apparent effect on the media than in the west. In the west, if only because of taboo (if not because of laws which exist almost everywhere but the US,) you'd never even have anything as explicit as Kodomo no Jikan or Chokotto Sister or even Battle Programmer Shiraze in print out of any publisher, let alone the gravure books. I mean, yeah, we came close with Jikan, but relative to Japan, the west just doesn't come to that level of cultural permissiveness, and that alone changes what we get in the media, and it effects perception of what is acceptable in media. That adds to up to - well, you're right Ben, but that doesn't mean it reads as less messed up to the outside world, and doesn't mean that the effect on the media is unusual compared to the west.
To put it another way, the only people in the US who will admit to having an affinity for kids at all are lolicons/shotacons (IE: tied into the relatively permissive otaku culture,) and they still usually qualify that with "it's a 2d-complex thing" in 100pt bold Impact type. In japan, while it's frowned upon, you will get people who own up to it straight up (see:
gaijin smash blog.)
Yup. It all depends on how much it bothers you. It actually really ticks me off. However, I think almost all mainstream anime out right now, and some of the otaku / artsy stuff, don't have any real lolicon aspects and it's easy to avoid them.
Like I said, it's all in the angles and story. An exploitative show usually makes it's intent fast and obvious. The stories using kids intelligently/appropriate, well, that's usually pretty obvious too if the directors are worth half a damn.
I mean, I can get some love for Dennou Coil? All kid cast, and story that takes the best Ghibli and Masumune Shirow could offer and smashes them into an awesome burrito.
It might also have something to do with his completely insane story partners. And he's also seemed to lose interest in anime during that time to focus more on manga. (What I'm saying, I suppose, is buy Robot.
)
Yeah, I think I'm behind on that. I'd pay for official english releases of Pochiyama at the Pharmacy and aBE other awesome doujin works too.
Watch Kaiba. And Genius Party. And The Girl Who Leapt Through Time. And Hell Girl. You've got serious genre blinders on if you think there's no visual and narrative creativity going on in anime this year.
You know, I we need to advocate for series like we used on this forum. If I can get Chad to watch Koi Kaze, I'm sure a series that isn't completely morally broken and visually/narratively exciting should be a synch.
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