The Quality of Anime: Has it Really Declined?

What about those of us who find the OTHER kinda girl disturbing? I don't like seeing large-chested girls overly sexualized. that grosses me out. I prefer it when shows find the middle ground, having characters from both sides. If they only have one kind of girl, they're going to alienate SOMEONE, so having one or more of each is alot more fair.
 
Maybe this is just the Import Filter at work, here, but are there really all THAT many cases of obviously underage characters being overtly sexualized in-show, in an otherwise mainstream title, that it can be seen as a sign of an overall decline of anime in general? I mean, I know it happens, but in my experience it's usually not so much in the show itself. You usually see it in fanworks (such as fanart, fanfics, or doujin) or, at MOST, in some of the official merchandise. That might be considered disturbing and/or immoral in and of itself, but the creators of a show can't exactly control what the more rabid of their fans do, and in most cases don't have full control over merchandising either.


Thanks for digging that up for me.
 
What about those of us who find the OTHER kinda girl disturbing? I don't like seeing large-chested girls overly sexualized. that grosses me out. I prefer it when shows find the middle ground, having characters from both sides. If they only have one kind of girl, they're going to alienate SOMEONE, so having one or more of each is alot more fair.
Umm... tough. Mature women have breasts. Mature women are OK to be sexualized (well, it can get annoying, but that's not the point.) Children, on the other hand, are not. Period. "Fair" doesn't enter into it. Nor does their breast size.

EDIT: Why aren't we asking ourselves why flat-chested mature women don't get sexualized? Why is it just the flat-chested children? Hmm...
 
What about those of us who find the OTHER kinda girl disturbing? I don't like seeing large-chested girls overly sexualized. that grosses me out. I prefer it when shows find the middle ground, having characters from both sides. If they only have one kind of girl, they're going to alienate SOMEONE, so having one or more of each is alot more fair.

Ok then, what is disturbing about a legal girl with large breasts in anime? I mean, it can be kinda gross, but I don't see how anyone could consider it offensive. An underage girl however... :shrug:
 
How did this conversation go off-track and collide with a debate over the sexualization of breast sizes? Does this really have anything to do with the quality of recent anime? Hmm?

--Romey
 
what is temperature at which dvds burn at?

Clearly, the only solution is to not only kick the lolicon aspect out of anime, but to really kick the objectification of women in anime out. All character design should be handled by yoshitoshi ABe, as we know from Haibane and NieA he's great at drawing of age characters with an adult build, frumpy clothes, and nothing more than, oh, B-cups. If there is to be a young girl featured in an anime, it may only be in a Ghibli picture, as we all know all Ghibli heroines are positive role models of assertive young women.

While were at it, the objectification of men in anime is also problematic. After all, all those bishonen and gar males make me feel inadequate and unattractive, and the gradual increase of shota-appeal males only makes my following call that much more important. Namely, all male character design should be done yoshitoshi ABe as well, as we all know he's also quite good at designing dumpy looking, relatively unattractive guys too. I mean, who would objectify the guys from Niea? Nobody, that's who.

Oh, what's this that just came across my desk...

People turn to animation as a means of escapism and entertainment, and that in fact, are often using it as means of living vicariously though someone else's story? Hmm, that's unexpected. Further still, that most of the anime that comes to the US, outside of the big shonen and shojo titles, is aimed at otaku in Japan, and thus whatever trends and social attitudes that are prominent amongst their otaku community often dominate the medium, regardless of foreign taboos? Wow, that could be problematic.

:sweat:

Alright, with that massive piece of sarcasm out of the way, let me say anime, for the foreseeable future, is going to be saddled with a ton of objectification of people, and the regardless what kind/type of person is being objectified you'll find someone objects to it, and on moral grounds at that. Further still, it's going to have a serious piece of it skewing young because Japan's taboos just don't fall on that stuff the same way as it does in the US. I mean, it took what amounted to the threat of trade sanctions to get Japan to ban child pornography, and that happened only a decade ago. As it stands, the age of consent in a lot of prefectures is still only 14 (of course, that's no different some localities in the US,) the enjo kosai (compensated dating) trend among jr. high and high schoolers in Japan is still going strong over a decade after it really began to take off, and even with the child porn laws on the books, you still have horrendous photo books of child models in bathing suits because that just scoots into legality.

To put it another way - yeah, pedophilia is exceedingly taboo in the west, as it should be (science backs that up - plenty of studies say it's a bad thing.) Japan's morality doesn't fall nearly as close to us on that as one would think. That's going to be reflected in their media, especially in otaku-centric anime where it is escapism for nerds with various issues a lot of the time. If anything, the more serious Japan gets about clamping down on real-world pedophilia - banning the kiddie photobooks, cracking down on enjo kosai and so on - the more that anime escapism is going to end up becoming more prominent; that cultural element will find away to be reflected in the culture. All things considered, it's probably better to have that in the fantasy media than happening in real life though.

Does that mean that it's palatable product to western otaku who'd probably much rather have Rally Vincent and Ryoko over Minnie May and Sasami? No. Is that a decline in the storytelling per se? Perhaps only cross-culturally, but it does mean that for some people, the more that turns up, the more it's going to detract from anime as medium for them. Of course, as I said, you can say that about any given element of a medium if you find the right element and the right person, and depending on the element, you'd have them detesting it on moral grounds. As such, it makes whether the raise of an occurrence of an element is indicative of a decline in the quality of a medium a much more personal assessment than one might think.
 
Ok then, what is disturbing about a legal girl with large breasts in anime? I mean, it can be kinda gross, but I don't see how anyone could consider it offensive. An underage girl however... :shrug:

right, you don't see how it could offend anyone. I don't see how loli could offend people. Different people, different taste, different standards, different opinions. Just because someone doesn't like something doesn't mean it should be done away with.

And I like this Karl Olsen guy. He seems to ignore his own opinion in situations like this and just try to find a middle ground.
 
I'd like to note that not everyone who likes lolicon is attracted to children. Sometimes it's just an attraction to a petite body form. This is especially supported by the fact that a lot of characters made for lolicon appeal don't even behave like children. Plus, girls in anime seem to come in about 3 basic shapes anyway: Full and voluptuous, petite, tall and lanky.
 
Clearly, the only solution is to not only kick the lolicon aspect out of anime, but to really kick the objectification of women in anime out. All character design should be handled by yoshitoshi ABe, as we know from Haibane and NieA he's great at drawing of age characters with an adult build, frumpy clothes, and nothing more than, oh, B-cups. If there is to be a young girl featured in an anime, it may only be in a Ghibli picture, as we all know all Ghibli heroines are positive role models of assertive young women.

While were at it, the objectification of men in anime is also problematic. After all, all those bishonen and gar males make me feel inadequate and unattractive, and the gradual increase of shota-appeal males only makes my following call that much more important. Namely, all male character design should be done yoshitoshi ABe as well, as we all know he's also quite good at designing dumpy looking, relatively unattractive guys too. I mean, who would objectify the guys from Niea? Nobody, that's who.

Oh, what's this that just came across my desk...

People turn to animation as a means of escapism and entertainment, and that in fact, are often using it as means of living vicariously though someone else's story? Hmm, that's unexpected. Further still, that most of the anime that comes to the US, outside of the big shonen and shojo titles, is aimed at otaku in Japan, and thus whatever trends and social attitudes that are prominent amongst their otaku community often dominate the medium, regardless of foreign taboos? Wow, that could be problematic.

:sweat:

Alright, with that massive piece of sarcasm out of the way, let me say anime, for the foreseeable future, is going to be saddled with a ton of objectification of people, and the regardless what kind/type of person is being objectified you'll find someone objects to it, and on moral grounds at that. Further still, it's going to have a serious piece of it skewing young because Japan's taboos just don't fall on that stuff the same way as it does in the US. I mean, it took what amounted to the threat of trade sanctions to get Japan to ban child pornography, and that happened only a decade ago. As it stands, the age of consent in a lot of prefectures is still only 14 (of course, that's no different some localities in the US,) the enjo kosai (compensated dating) trend among jr. high and high schoolers in Japan is still going strong over a decade after it really began to take off, and even with the child porn laws on the books, you still have horrendous photo books of child models in bathing suits because that just scoots into legality.

To put it another way - yeah, pedophilia is exceedingly taboo in the west, as it should be (science backs that up - plenty of studies say it's a bad thing.) Japan's morality doesn't fall nearly as close to us on that as one would think. That's going to be reflected in their media, especially in otaku-centric anime where it is escapism for nerds with various issues a lot of the time. If anything, the more serious Japan gets about clamping down on real-world pedophilia - banning the kiddie photobooks, cracking down on enjo kosai and so on - the more that anime escapism is going to end up becoming more prominent; that cultural element will find away to be reflected in the culture. All things considered, it's probably better to have that in the fantasy media than happening in real life though.

Does that mean that it's palatable product to western otaku who'd probably much rather have Rally Vincent and Ryoko over Minnie May and Sasami? No. Is that a decline in the storytelling per se? Perhaps only cross-culturally, but it does mean that for some people, the more that turns up, the more it's going to detract from anime as medium for them. Of course, as I said, you can say that about any given element of a medium if you find the right element and the right person, and depending on the element, you'd have them detesting it on moral grounds. As such, it makes whether the raise of an occurrence of an element is indicative of a decline in the quality of a medium a much more personal assessment than one might think.

And the winner of today's thread is...
 
The 'Loli character' is usually my favorite in shows, but not always. Like Rosairo + Vampire, my favorite character is Mizore, although Yukari IS my second favorite. And in Gurren Lagann, my favorite is Kiyal. then again, Darry, the only real 'loli' character in the show, is like a 2 feet tall in the first half.
 
I don't that its declined, its somewhat lost its variety but its qualitys okay.
 
Mods == Gods ;)

And the winner of today's thread is...

And I like this Karl Olsen guy. He seems to ignore his own opinion in situations like this and just try to find a middle ground.

And that's why I'm a mod. :cool:

I'd like to note that not everyone who likes lolicon is attracted to children. Sometimes it's just an attraction to a petite body form. This is especially supported by the fact that a lot of characters made for lolicon appeal don't even behave like children. Plus, girls in anime seem to come in about 3 basic shapes anyway: Full and voluptuous, petite, tall and lanky.

Which is part of why I brought up aBE. He actually draws, you know, human beings. Coincidentally (or not) I haven't seen a show with his character designs, let alone his storytelling, in over half a decade. Fact is, as bad as US otakudom is about gravitating towards good storytelling with real characters over flashiness and fanservice, Japanese otaku seem to be vastly worse.

Meanwhile, one of my friends by her own admission is a so called legal loli - she's 21, no more than about 4'10", and her build is no more than that of a 12-year-old. Add to that her propensity for wearing goth-loli clothing, and her skill with make-up, and she can pass for younger easily. I mean, it's rare, but it does happen IRL, and I imagine in Japan where a combination of leaner diets, higher-levels of physical activity and a genetic predisposition towards more petite builds, it's probably not unusual at all to see 20-somethings who look, especially to western eyes, like preteens (which probably feeds back into the prevalent lolicon mindset, unfortunately!)

Lastly, the lolicon characters that act mature are a double-edged sword. Again, I won't lie and say that combo doesn't happen in real life; back when I worked at Target, I once helped a girl with school shopping who more together and calm than her own mom, and at Aki-Con, a lot of the con op stuff was being handled by kids, and handled better than by some of the adult pros I've seen at cons. Some very good stories put this to use as well - it's where Ichigo Mashimaro gets it's laughs and where Gunslinger Girl gets it's drama. Shoot, almost every Ghibli heroine is very strong and mature for her age. However, the reason for including that character type in anime exists for a lot of different reasons, and one of them is undoubtedly, at points, that of a lolicon casting their views and wants on to a character, not because of some element of realism, especially when you look at titles like Kodomo no Jikan. The mature loli character can be a serious case of objectification, and the only way you know it is the camera angles and the storylines. It's not what it is, it's where it's taken.
 
Thanks for the sanity Karl.

I have no problem with loli and moe existing as as a fetish thing, but when it starts spilling over into the mainstream shows the alarm klazons go off in my head. Because in West, you do not sexualize prepubescent kids. Period. And the more anime and manga get associated with that kind of thing, the worse it is for anime *as a whole* in the West.

I mean we've always been a lot closer to the edge than people realize. The recent Iowa case is one example, and there was that Texas case where a guy was prosecuted for selling Overfiend manga,and the really disturbing case of a guy in Canada whose conviction was almost solely based on loli manga and doujinshi. Anime and manga never had a great reputation here, and the ultraviolence and sexualized stuff still creeps a lot of people out. And now sexualized kids? It's like painting a target on yourself.

When distributors are routinely aging up characters to get around obscenity laws, sometimes to ridiculous extremes - it kind of scares me that a lot of otaku really don't understand that most of the Western population does not consider this acceptable behavior. When the bubble bursts I do not want to be around for the fallout.
 
As far as loli-designed characters who act more mature than they look go, you've got to ask yourself: when's the last time you saw ANY show or movie, live action or animated, Japanese or Western, in which characters younger than 14 or so actually ACT like kids?

So it's kind of a case of "two wrongs don't make a right" IMO. You can't use poor writing to justify your loli character designs. (-:
 
Again, some people just prefer a more petite body-type, and there is NOTHING wrong with that, no matter how you look at it.
 
True, but there's a fine line between "I like petite women" and "I like 12-year-olds, but since I can't admit that in polite company, I'll take women who resemble 12-year-olds as much as possible."
 
Hey, you know what would be awesome? Anime that existed to do something besides act like a fanservice delivery system! That was, perhaps, interesting because it was telling a good story or featured interesting visuals of the non-titillating fashion!

Then it wouldn't matter what kind of fanservice you did or didn't like in anime! You'd have something else to care about.
 
True, but there's a fine line between "I like petite women" and "I like 12-year-olds, but since I can't admit that in polite company, I'll take women who resemble 12-year-olds as much as possible."

As long as the age of the character isn't driven into the ground, I don't really give it much thought.. For example, I found Darry from Gurren Lagann post-time skip to be very cute. Since a drawing of a fictional character can be any age the creator says so, that's really not a factor, now is it? You can have a tall, busty nine-year-old or a short, petite and young looking 468-year-old. I'm comfortable enough with the fact that I'm not attracted to real children to say if I find a character design aesthetically pleasing or not. Sorry if that bothers people. I like girls with curves just as much as the next person, but the thought of a girl that's small enough to pick up and hold in your lap is quite adorable. It's a harmless enough fantasy.

Hey, you know what would be awesome? Anime that existed to do something besides act like a fanservice delivery system! That was, perhaps, interesting because it was telling a good story or featured interesting visuals of the non-titillating fashion!

Then it wouldn't matter what kind of fanservice you did or didn't like in anime! You'd have something else to care about.

Um, plenty of series exist like that even now, and they're not a dying breed. There's a place, time, and audience for both escapist and thoughtful anime series just like any other form of entertainment or art.
 
Which is part of why I brought up aBE. He actually draws, you know, human beings. Coincidentally (or not) I haven't seen a show with his character designs, let alone his storytelling, in over half a decade.

Yeah, this is my main gripe about those type of programs. It's not so much that they're over-sexualized, which I admit IS problematic. It's just the overall china-doll look that's only gotten worse with overly detailed digital coloring. It's also the fact that there's often very little difference in overall drawing style of these so-called "moe" designs over several series, and their personalities usually match their hollow appearances. I can sort of understand getting into those polished, sparkly designs as a younger person, but it's definitely something I found myself gravitating from over the years.

Heck, bring me the little girl from Ashita no Joe for all I care, just enough of these prepackaged dolls with assorted price tags.

As for anime as a whole, I really haven't followed it much as of late. I've always percieved market saturation with more generic brands of shows, as Mynd Hed and others mentioned earlier, but maybe it's been like that for the past 20-30 years already. It definitely seems like a more assembly-line industry sponging off of the next fad or hot manga title, but I'd be a fool to think there aren't any animators who strive to make a quality product and actually broaden the scope of the medium of animation. And when the mainstream stuff starts to get dry and stale, the good stuff will be that much sweeter.
 
Clearly, the only solution is to not only kick the lolicon aspect out of anime, but to really kick the objectification of women in anime out. All character design should be handled by yoshitoshi ABe, as we know from Haibane and NieA he's great at drawing of age characters with an adult build, frumpy clothes, and nothing more than, oh, B-cups. If there is to be a young girl featured in an anime, it may only be in a Ghibli picture, as we all know all Ghibli heroines are positive role models of assertive young women.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Have you and I not been saying this for years? As I recall it was because we had this opinion in common that we became online buds in the first place.

Oh wait, this time you're kidding. :)

To put it another way - yeah, pedophilia is exceedingly taboo in the west, as it should be (science backs that up - plenty of studies say it's a bad thing.) Japan's morality doesn't fall nearly as close to us on that as one would think.

I disagree at least with the simplistic way you're making that statement -- I don't think this necessarily reflects on real Japanese sexual morality in the way you seem to mean. We're talking about passive entertainment, not real acts. The connection between the two is not obvious.

A part of the appeal of these idols, underage gravure models, etc. is their innocence. Fans of these books may look at these wide-eyed young girls in a sexual manner, but it's a conditioned looking that loses part of its appeal if the object is seen as dirtied by adulthood. (Further reading: here, and here See also: Perfect Blue!) So it's almost the opposite of pedophilia in its classical form -- a real, physical act as part of a passage into adulthood (which coincidentally was usually homosexual anyway). The continued childlike innocence of the object is actually necessary.

Second, just look at the covers of the bestselling gravure books. They depict underage girls who just happen to have developed (often overdeveloped) sexual characteristics (see "12-year-old with F cups" Saaya Irie). True, there are really disturbing dojinshi that depict actual children rather than adolescents, but these are not at all mainstream even in the dojin community and the market for them is as fringe in Japan as it would be in the U.S. -- it's just the more general permissiveness of Japanese society when it comes to sex that allows them to be sold in the open. So the sexual element -- at least in the widely sold books and paraphernalia -- is not pedophiliac. Enjo kosai, too, doesn't belong in an argument about pedophilia as a disorder because high schoolers are fairly sexually well developed. Enjo kosai is more of a social problem than a problem of widespread sexual deviancy.

Does that mean that it's palatable product to western otaku who'd probably much rather have Rally Vincent and Ryoko over Minnie May and Sasami? No. Is that a decline in the storytelling per se? Perhaps only cross-culturally, but it does mean that for some people, the more that turns up, the more it's going to detract from anime as medium for them. Of course, as I said, you can say that about any given element of a medium if you find the right element and the right person, and depending on the element, you'd have them detesting it on moral grounds. As such, it makes whether the raise of an occurrence of an element is indicative of a decline in the quality of a medium a much more personal assessment than one might think.

Yup. It all depends on how much it bothers you. It actually really ticks me off. However, I think almost all mainstream anime out right now, and some of the otaku / artsy stuff, don't have any real lolicon aspects and it's easy to avoid them.

Which is part of why I brought up aBE. He actually draws, you know, human beings. Coincidentally (or not) I haven't seen a show with his character designs, let alone his storytelling, in over half a decade. Fact is, as bad as US otakudom is about gravitating towards good storytelling with real characters over flashiness and fanservice, Japanese otaku seem to be vastly worse.

It might also have something to do with his completely insane story partners. And he's also seemed to lose interest in anime during that time to focus more on manga. (What I'm saying, I suppose, is buy Robot. :))

Hey, you know what would be awesome? Anime that existed to do something besides act like a fanservice delivery system! That was, perhaps, interesting because it was telling a good story or featured interesting visuals of the non-titillating fashion!

Watch Kaiba. And Genius Party. And The Girl Who Leapt Through Time. And Hell Girl. You've got serious genre blinders on if you think there's no visual and narrative creativity going on in anime this year.
 

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