The Quality of Anime: Has it Really Declined?

Macross Frontier recently had a tour bus. Said tour bus had prominent decals of Ranka Lee lounging naked on a heart which had the English phrase 'HARD ON' on it.

I'm not looking for stuff to hate, Japan just keeps providing it(!)
 
And degrading women!
For somebody that thinks that, I can't help but notice all your blueprints on your desk about making a Sumeragi mouse pad. ;)
GWOtaku said:
Too many fanservice shows, weaker writing, no new ideas, worse art thanks to digital animation...there are people that think some or all of these. I have the most sympathy for the former complaint, but as I've said I think that current anime is being unfairly underrated by some people that are probably too married to the past and/or the early days of their fandom.
And then that's the thing as well. Back in the past there was no inherently bad anime that tempered our (or anybody's for that matter) our belief in 'greatest thing evar'. There weren't any "Strike Witches" or "Moetan" or "Candidate for Goddess" back in those 90s era, so our nostalgia for that era isn't sullied by counterexamples that anime CAN be bad or whatever.
 
Well, I think the question has to become this: is that a decline or is there simply more stuff getting made? I think I'm leaning toward the latter conclusion. Although, browse through a thorough list of anime sometime, ANN's encyclopedia is a good one...seems to me a lot of crap was made before the advent of moe, it's just that we haven't heard about most of it.
 
Well, I think the question has to become this: is that a decline or is there simply more stuff getting made? I think I'm leaning toward the latter conclusion. Although, browse through a thorough list of anime sometime, ANN's encyclopedia is a good one...seems to me a lot of crap was made before the advent of moe, it's just that we haven't heard about most of it.
And that leads me to wonder if those nostalgic of the 90s underwent this realization, I'm left to wonder if their complaints about the lack of quality anime in the present would no longer be existent. I dunno. The Information Age and a lack of knowledge of the shows back then compared to the shows back now has done a really big number or whatever.
 
I think the reasons why some anime fans look back on the 80's and (perhaps to a lesser extent) the 90's with nostalgia is because it seems like it was easier to make new and interesting things back then. With Japans economy booming studio's had more money to experiment. With the OAV boom we saw alot of pretty interesting series made for niche markets. Stuff like Angels Egg, or Robot Carnival could never be made nowadays, because its not a sure fire hit.

And sometimes these risks payed off. Series like Legend of The Galactic Heroes managed to break the mould and be hugely succesfull.

I don't neccesarily think that either era has been inherintly better than the other, though I do miss the freedom which the OVA era seemed to bring. Even if OVA's showed that sometimes, this isn't a good thing:sweat:
 
Well, I think the question has to become this: is that a decline or is there simply more stuff getting made? I think I'm leaning toward the latter conclusion. Although, browse through a thorough list of anime sometime, ANN's encyclopedia is a good one...seems to me a lot of crap was made before the advent of moe, it's just that we haven't heard about most of it.

I think your original point stands. I'm just vocal that it's also fair to say that the overcatering to a certain disturbing market has grown and has sadly clawed its way into many what would otherwise be good productions. I've highlighted Geass because I think if it had focussed on the actual storytelling instead of commercialism the themes it had would have come out so much stronger and it really would be a classic. Instead, it ends up as rambling possibly xenophobic cheesecake.
 
Like I said in another thread...one of the problems is that we Americans tried to cram 40 years' worth of Japanese animation history into half a decade or so. Oversaturation really is a huge problem.

If we had had these releases spaced out more, I doubt fans would be feeling the same malaise they're experiencing now.

Juu-kuchi said:
Back in the past there was no inherently bad anime that tempered our (or anybody's for that matter) our belief in 'greatest thing evar'. There weren't any "Strike Witches" or "Moetan" or "Candidate for Goddess" back in those 90s era, so our nostalgia for that era isn't sullied by counterexamples that anime CAN be bad or whatever.

There were, but most Americans just didn't know about it.
 
And that leads me to wonder if those nostalgic of the 90s underwent this realization, I'm left to wonder if their complaints about the lack of quality anime in the present would no longer be existent. I dunno. The Information Age and a lack of knowledge of the shows back then compared to the shows back now has done a really big number or whatever.

I think the complaints would certainly cease. The lack of awareness is surely due to the lack of attention in print or otherwise given to that niche stuff, not to mention that back then there weren't five different companies shipping a horde of titles to the West.

I think the reasons why some anime fans look back on the 80's and (perhaps to a lesser extent) the 90's with nostalgia is because it seems like it was easier to make new and interesting things back then. With Japans economy booming studio's had more money to experiment. With the OAV boom we saw alot of pretty interesting series made for niche markets. Stuff like Angels Egg, or Robot Carnival could never be made nowadays, because its not a sure fire hit.

And sometimes these risks payed off. Series like Legend of The Galactic Heroes managed to break the mould and be hugely succesful.

I don't necessarily think that either era has been inherently better than the other, though I do miss the freedom which the OVA era seemed to bring. Even if OVA's showed that sometimes, this isn't a good thing:sweat:

There is that. If the time of the animated epic is gone then to me that's to be lamented, although I'm glad that even in the 90's they were continuing to update LoGH through side stories. Heck even shorter OVA's paid off magnificently at times, like with Lodoss War and Giant Robo. Would that we had more like them. Well, at least some of the really major TV series get enough of a budget to display impressive work. Also, for all that I know, maybe for some shows it's better to cram a good story into 13 episodes than it is to drag it out for twice or three times as long. Still, at times, I wish there were more series longer than 26 episodes that weren't a mecha series or an adaptation of a shonen jump comic. For that reason, I think exceptions to the rule like Full Metal Alchemist and Nana are to be valued. Of course, on the other hand, shorter length makes collecting anime much easier on our checkbooks. I suppose there are advantages to either era.

I think your original point stands. I'm just vocal that it's also fair to say that the overcatering to a certain disturbing market has grown and has sadly clawed its way into many what would otherwise be good productions. I've highlighted Geass because I think if it had focused on the actual storytelling instead of commercialism the themes it had would have come out so much stronger and it really would be a classic. Instead, it ends up as rambling possibly xenophobic cheesecake.

It's a good example of a show that probably suffered from its success by keeping half of its successful formula and changing aspects of the rest, sort of like the gap that exists between Big O and Big O II. To bring up what you said about Macross Frontier that was an unfortunate aspect that I noticed even though I enjoyed it reasonably well. Ranka has shades of Moe and Sheryl isn't exactly lacking in assets. I feel like a terrible nitpicker right now but I think of original Macross, where Minmei was pretty and an idol but to me there was always little to no risk of anybody mistaking her for some sort of sex symbol. Though as you note the devil seems to unfortunately be in the marketing, at least to its credit Frontier certainly didn't exploit its women in the way that other productions have sadly done.

And fortunately, on balance, a solid number of titles like (most of) the ones on my list manage to flat out dodge the issue. Probably because they are neither burdened with catering to everyone, nor so devoid of quality that they have to make up for it with cheap thrills. I still can't believe that something like Kaleido Star exists without any cheap fanservice to speak of.
 
I'm pretty sure Nickeloden isn't selling mouse pads of Katara where her chest are two gel pads. But if we look at Geass merchandise as one example...

Obviously Nickeloden is doing something wrong. :P

However, prehaps the problem is that Japan has quite a bit differnet standards then the US when it comes to sex.
 
I certainly think so. It feels like anime has become a stereotype of itself.
 
Well, I have noticed that recent shoujo (at least the ones I watch and read) are a bit more... risque than what I've seen from, say, the early 90s. They aren't afraid to let the male love interest see the girl's underwear/bra (yes, this is an old cliche, but there seems to be more of it now), or have another female grope her from behind.

Granted, I haven't seen every or TONS of shoujo to really know for sure that this sort of thing wasn't happening on a more common level, but I have seen a lot in my 11 years of fandom and it caught my notice. I'm rather annoyed by it.
 
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Hmmm, do Japanese anime fans think the quality of anime has gone down?
 
I've been an anime fan for about nine years, and while I agree the crap to quality ratio has always been about the same, still there are a couple of recent trends that have really been turning me off: the moe and date sim shows being the big ones. Scratch that. The moe and date sim heroines bug the hell out of me. They seem to be getting younger and dumber and higher pitched every year. And they're *everywhere.* It's like the ideal anime female is now prepubescent. I feel pedo just looking at some of the cover art.

Plus they've started mixing moe and guro lately, which is so very, very wrong.

Sigh. Magical girl shows are pretty much dead, and will be missed. Shows aimed at girls in general seems to have gotten more scarce. Josei has had a nice little boom though.

Gonzo tanked. Good riddance.

GAINAX revived. Yay.

CLAMP is still going strong. Urghh.
 
GAINAX revived. Yay.

CLAMP is still going strong. Urghh.

Considering CLAMP is being a master of mindscrew right now, I find this funny :D
 
There weren't any "Strike Witches" or "Moetan" or "Candidate for Goddess" back in those 90s era, so our nostalgia for that era isn't sullied by counterexamples that anime CAN be bad or whatever.

There were. Some of the ten worst anime I've ever seen came out of the 90's, it's just that anime is disposable and bad stuff is quickly forgotten.

That said, I'd say the actual worst periods for anime ever, overall, were the early 80's and early 00's. Framerates sank into the absolute toilet on the whole in both periods, despite a lot of stand-out gems still being produced.
 
Gonzo tanked. Good riddance.

What? Gonzo is just as awesome as they always were. Sure, the Rosario + Vampire adaption is fairly poor, but the music is great. And Strike Witches was one of the best shows of the year. There wasn't much this year I found worth watching, but that sure was.
 
What? Gonzo is just as awesome as they always were. Sure, the Rosario + Vampire adaption is fairly poor, but the music is great. And Strike Witches was one of the best shows of the year. There wasn't much this year I found worth watching, but that sure was.

I think out of their entire output, I've only moderately liked three of their shows: Last Exile, Saikano, and Gankutsuou - and all of those had bungled endings. Everything else has been bland, bland, bland, bland. They do nice graphics, but never pay nearly enough attention to the writing or concepts.

I especially hated the way they mucked up Seven Samurai and Romeo and Juliet. The versions they came up were just so safe and tame and... Disney.
 
I definitely have to agree, not only are we exposed to more anime than ever before, thanks to increased imports and localizations, but such factors as nostalgia and rose-colored glasses affect our perceptions of the "good old days", which probably weren't that good nor that old to begin with when we move beyond the classics and try to get a better idea of the anime industry of the 80's and 90's. And yes, I do prefer a number of older series including LoGH, Gunbuster and even Irresponsible Captain Tylor if that counts, among others, but I know that's hardly the entire picture.

It would be quite interesting to find out how the Japanese themselves think about this matter, not just in retrospect since I suppose the notion of a "golden age" must still exist among them but also from the contemporary points of view of the older generations of anime fans and critics.

That said, some comments on a couple of more or less tangential issues that have also been brought up.

In retrospect, they are going in the opposite direction for Gundam 00. Season 1 had a handful of fanservice scenes, the whole "Let's go to the beach while the miesters risk thier lives in battle" scene comes to mind. Season 2 seemes to reverse this, going so far as to REDUCE the bust sizes of most of the female cast. Bravo, Sunrise

Reducing the amount of fanservice is a good thing, which thankfully seems to be the case in 00 so far. But retroactively changing an adult character's body shape may also be a sign of animation inconsistency as opposed to an elaborate attempt at making a conscious progressive statement on the matter, especially when and if animation quality as a whole varies somewhat, which has been the case in certain episodes or sequences. In other words, it is definitely a positive development, which I recognize, but not exactly a real sea change as of yet, and even the second season still has a small number of fanservice scenes that aren't strictly necessary.

I've highlighted Geass because I think if it had focussed on the actual storytelling instead of commercialism the themes it had would have come out so much stronger and it really would be a classic. Instead, it ends up as rambling possibly xenophobic cheesecake.

a)This would have been avoided if Code Geass season two had remained in a late night slot and Sunrise had not tried to move the show to prime time in an attempt to commercialize it further after its unexpected success.

According to the S1 DVD booklet interview with writer Ichirou Ohkouchi, the first series was originally meant to be a prime time show, but such iconic elements as the Geass and Lelouch's "more evil than heroic" nature were not added to the project until it was changed into a late night program. To briefly quote: "The audience is pretty different between an afternoon anime and a late night anime, so we couldn't keep the same story." If that much applied to the first season it is no wonder that the second also went through a few modifications when the time slot change was reversed. For those interested there are other staff comments which confirm that side of the story.

It is somewhat ironic that a few representative details 00 has been praised for, such as jumping right back into the action without wasting any time and not beating around the bush in general since the first season's audience is already expected to be there, were coincidentially all part of what the Code Geass staff had originally intended for their own show. In other words, there would be no "R2" in the title and the second season would have begun in a different manner, and thus perhaps with less changes and less pandering overall.

Trying to tie this back into the main discussion for a little bit, I have to wonder if this isn't a relatively new phenomenon...but no, surely there must be a couple of relevant examples elsewhere as well, involving much older series. There are certainly many reasons a show can change from one season or one sequel to another, and admittedly not just time slots alone.

b)I would say that the increased commercialism and cheesecake served as unnecessary distractions, mostly for the worse in terms of how the series was executed on an episodic basis, but not to the extreme of reducing the show's central themes to rambling alone. Maybe it is just me, but re-watching some of the earlier R2 episodes with a relatively fresh memory of how the show actually ended produces some interesting results in this area, if certainly not optimal ones. I also think the "possibly xenophobic" aspect of Code Geass has been blown out of proportion from day one to date, but I admit it still became a concern in practice.
 
Reducing the amount of fanservice is a good thing, which thankfully seems to be the case in 00 so far. But retroactively changing an adult character's body shape may also be a sign of animation inconsistency as opposed to an elaborate attempt at making a conscious progressive statement on the matter, especially when and if animation quality as a whole varies somewhat, which has been the case in certain episodes or sequences. In other words, it is definitely a positive development, which I recognize, but not exactly a real sea change as of yet, and even the second season still has a small number of fanservice scenes that aren't strictly necessary.

The bust size isn't the only change. The major change, at least for the bridge bunnies, is that they are wearing fairly conservative uniforms, as opposed to wearing tight catsuits and revealing clothing. Heck, the one showing off the most fanservice is Lasse, who has his vest cut off at the shoulders to show off his muscles :p
 

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