Pokemon Thread

[CyberCubed]

This is a long youtube video, but it gives a good research review on Takeshi Shudo the original director of the anime, and why they made the decision to drop Misty from the anime. It's 33 minutes so you might need to skim through it if you don't have the time, but it's very well done. A lot of misinformation you see online about the early days of the anime are debunked here, with research from Shudo's blogs about the early days.

 

[Yojimbo]

Info on a new postal-themed anime "Dragonite and the Mailman" that will debut on the Pokemon Youtube on February 27.

 

[CyberCubed]

It's always interesting to think how the Pokemon anime might have turned out a little different. Like imagine if Shudo did not favor Team Rocket and their characters left at the end of Johto, that would alone, completely change the rest of the anime. That means from Hoenn, DP, etc. onward...you wouldn't have TR attacking Ash and his friends every episode. Like what would they have done, replaced them with random mooks from Magma/Aqua or Galactic to attack them in every episode? Or just not have any comic relief villains and keep the other villain teams the same as they were?

Interesting enough, it seems like all the other writers were on the same wavelength as Shudo when it came to Misty. As we know Shudo quit the anime by late Johto, but even when Hoenn, DP, etc. were all going on, none of the other writers ever thought Misty was worth reviving as a main character beyond a handful of cameos. In an alternate universe, Misty could have theoretically lasted a really long time on the main cast like Brock did, up till BW at least, but she got cut short while Brock stayed up to that point. Obviously it was because Brock was used to explain battles and provide exposition, but it's interesting to think about.

Ash has had so many companions over the series and it's always funny to think about how the original trio really was done away with after Johto, for over 20 years, until basically MPM which was just a short epilogue series as the show was wrapping up. In the end, Misty and Brock were obviously not the important characters to the franchise overall that people thought they were, and now that we're so far removed from the early days of the anime with two decades later and a chance of fans growing up, that's even more apparent. It's actually hard to believe there was once a time when people thought Misty or Brock had to be on the main cast forever, what a difference 20 years can make.

 

[Light Lucario]

It's always interesting to think how the Pokemon anime might have turned out a little different. Like imagine if Shudo did not favor Team Rocket and their characters left at the end of Johto, that would alone, completely change the rest of the anime. That means from Hoenn, DP, etc. onward...you wouldn't have TR attacking Ash and his friends every episode. Like what would they have done, replaced them with random mooks from Magma/Aqua or Galactic to attack them in every episode? Or just not have any comic relief villains and keep the other villain teams the same as they were?

I think that they probably would have made more original villains. They could have just replaced the evil team chasing after Ash every series, but that might have been harder to keep fresh. Jessie and James were from Team Rocket, but they were original characters to the anime, so making original villains wouldn't have been too difficult. The Team Rocket trio has always been popular, so it would have been strange to write them out after the original series though.

Interesting enough, it seems like all the other writers were on the same wavelength as Shudo when it came to Misty. As we know Shudo quit the anime by late Johto, but even when Hoenn, DP, etc. were all going on, none of the other writers ever thought Misty was worth reviving as a main character beyond a handful of cameos. In an alternate universe, Misty could have theoretically lasted a really long time on the main cast like Brock did, up till BW at least, but she got cut short while Brock stayed up to that point. Obviously it was because Brock was used to explain battles and provide exposition, but it's interesting to think about.

I don't think that bringing Misty back would have been up to just one writer, especially when there would be more of a priority to promote the newest games with the newest Pokemon. Bringing in a new female character from the games would make more sense to do that than bringing Misty back. Aside from Brock's first departure, characters who leave the main cast tend to not come back as a main character, so I don't know why you keep focusing in on Misty like this. Your obsession with her character and fanbase just never makes sense to me.

I'd also give Brock a bit more credit than that. He was more than just there to explain battles and exposition. He had a good dynamic with Ash, an underrated impact on Dawn and he had really good focused episodes in AG and DP. I suspect that they kept him in AG in part because they didn't want to risk changing too much by replacing both Misty and Brock at the same time. They didn't have any character that could fit his role until B/W either. I doubt that Misty could have lasted that long. Her team was limited to primarily Water types. While they typically have a ton of new Water types in each generation, it still would have been an unnecessary limitation when having new female leads would allow for them to make new stories and new teams with more variety than they could with Misty.

Ash has had so many companions over the series and it's always funny to think about how the original trio really was done away with after Johto, for over 20 years, until basically MPM which was just a short epilogue series as the show was wrapping up. In the end, Misty and Brock were obviously not the important characters to the franchise overall that people thought they were, and now that we're so far removed from the early days of the anime with two decades later and a chance of fans growing up, that's even more apparent. It's actually hard to believe there was once a time when people thought Misty or Brock had to be on the main cast forever, what a difference 20 years can make.

I don't think that people think that Misty and Brock are important. They're the most iconic traveling companions, but I don't think that the fanbase puts them on that high of a pedestal, at least not for a long time. It's not that strange for stuff to change after two decades either.

 

[Yojimbo]

Trailer for "Dragonite and the Mailman" posted. Theme song is "Kami Hikōki" (Paper Airplane) by suis from yorushika x Evan Call, the anime will be shown during the "Pokémon Presents" livestream on February 27 at 11:00 p.m. JST (9:00 a.m. EST), anime is produced by CoMix Wave Films, Riko Fukumoto voices Hana, Taku Kimura directed and storyboarded, Kentarō Nana is wrote and supervised the script, Asuka Dokai, designed the characters, Maho Aoki did character design and was the animation director, Tasuku Watanabe was the art director, Evan Call was the composer.

 

[CyberCubed]

I'm glad they keep making these shorts. I think they started with the BW2 trailer way back in 2012 but that was only like 2 minutes long. Then came Pokemon Origins with Red which was 4 regular length eps. Then they made Generations, Evolutions, Twilight Wings, Paldea shorts, Poketoons, etc.

I remember the time when there was virtually no Pokemon animation without Ash in it. It's funny how times have changed. You can see during the earlier days of the franchise they were so reluctant to make anime stuff without Ash at all. It's the same reason the whole Pokemon special manga never got an anime adaption, probably because they didn't want it competing with the main show.

 

[Light Lucario]

I'm glad they keep making these shorts. I think they started with the BW2 trailer way back in 2012 but that was only like 2 minutes long. Then came Pokemon Origins with Red which was 4 regular length eps. Then they made Generations, Evolutions, Twilight Wings, Paldea shorts, Poketoons, etc.

I remember the time when there was virtually no Pokemon animation without Ash in it. It's funny how times have changed. You can see during the earlier days of the franchise they were so reluctant to make anime stuff without Ash at all. It's the same reason the whole Pokemon special manga never got an anime adaption, probably because they didn't want it competing with the main show.

I'm not sure if it was a matter of being reluctant to make anime stuff without Ash so much as they didn't want to spend money on more animated projects, especially when the main series was so successful. Out of all of the shorts, I think only Twilight Wings and Poketoons have been well received among fans too, or at least I've seen the most positive reception towards them.

It's possible that they didn't want an Adventures adaptation to compete with the main anime series, but I think it was more likely due to how expensive it would be to have two long running series airing at the same time. They absolutely could afford it given how much money the franchise makes, but they also want to spend as little money as they can while still turning in a profit. Plus, the Adventures series is a monthly series that has had long breaks and weird releases. I think that they often don't have important chapters released until the full volumes come out. It could have been pretty difficult to adapt even just the first couple of arcs with that in mind.

 

[Yojimbo]

Here's the new Dragonite short. (I think you turn on the subs, go to the gear icon, pick subtitles, and an auto translate option should appear and pick English or whichever language)

 

[CyberCubed]

By the end of March it'll officially been 2 full years since Ash's anime ended after 26 years. Kind of surreal Ash has been gone for 2 years after two decades and people thinking they would never move on from him. 1997-2023 was one long run.

Ironically enough I'm old enough to remember when people thought Brock being replaced by Tracey was a big deal (even though it was only for 32 episodes, lol), and then of course the way people tried to make a big deal out of Misty leaving after Johto...only for her to stay gone for the next 20 years and 900+ episodes and every series that followed besides a few small cameos. It's actually hard to believe there was ever a time when people thought Ash or Misty or Brock had to be "the face of pokemon."

All the kids growing up watching Horizons now as their first Pokemon anime are also basically the first gen of kids growing up with Pokemon without Ash. Pretty funny to think about, in a few years time they'll age into teens and come online and say they have no nostalgia for Ash at all. Reminds me of how 80% of the fandom grew up watching the anime after Misty left.

 

[Light Lucario]

By the end of March it'll officially been 2 full years since Ash's anime ended after 26 years. Kind of surreal Ash has been gone for 2 years after two decades and people thinking they would never move on from him. 1997-2023 was one long run.

Ironically enough I'm old enough to remember when people thought Brock being replaced by Tracey was a big deal (even though it was only for 32 episodes, lol), and then of course the way people tried to make a big deal out of Misty leaving after Johto...only for her to stay gone for the next 20 years and 900+ episodes and every series that followed besides a few small cameos. It's actually hard to believe there was ever a time when people thought Ash or Misty or Brock had to be "the face of pokemon."

To be fair, fans obviously didn't know that Brock would come back at the time he was first replaced. I don't know if people said that Misty and Brock were the face of Pokemon. Ash and Pikachu were always more iconic simply because Ash was the lead character and Pikachu is the franchise's mascot. Misty and Brock are easily the most recognizable traveling companions to the general public, but I don't think that they'd be considered faces of the anime, at least not to the degree of Ash and Pikachu.

All the kids growing up watching Horizons now as their first Pokemon anime are also basically the first gen of kids growing up with Pokemon without Ash. Pretty funny to think about, in a few years time they'll age into teens and come online and say they have no nostalgia for Ash at all. Reminds me of how 80% of the fandom grew up watching the anime after Misty left.

I still don't understand your obsession with constantly bringing up Misty. The percentage is also rather strange there since you obviously can't accurately find out how many people grew up with the original series or how many new fans watched the original series. I wouldn't say that there's no chance that kids watching Horizons won't have any nostalgia for Ash exactly. It isn't unlikely that they could watch both new series and older series too, especially when they are uploading more episodes on YouTube. Granted, that isn't exactly the same as watching new episodes and not every kid might be interested in older series if they get in through Horizons too, but it isn't like kids couldn't find all of the various series and movies featuring Ash or that they couldn't form any kind of attachment to him just because Horizons exists.

 

[CyberCubed]

Horizons is doing a small timeskip with the characters, and aging Liko and Roy (seems to be by a year or two) with the new arc. Kind of surprising since the writers wanted Ash to stay 10 for the entire span of the anime. I guess this proves since Liko/Roy will only be around one generation, they can age them a bit and more on since every series will likely have new main characters.

The funny thing is at least prior to SM and JN, you could arguably say it seemed like Ash was aging in terms of design, even if the websites said he was still 10, it was never said in the series itself outside of BW's first ep by the narrator, and you could just overlook it because well..it was BW.

 

[Light Lucario]

Horizons is doing a small timeskip with the characters, and aging Liko and Roy (seems to be by a year or two) with the new arc. Kind of surprising since the writers wanted Ash to stay 10 for the entire span of the anime. I guess this proves since Liko/Roy will only be around one generation, they can age them a bit and more on since every series will likely have new main characters.

Honestly, it was pretty obvious that Liko and Roy were going to stay for just Horizons simply because their first Pokemon are two of the Paldea starters. I love the Paldea starters, especially Fuecoco, but they wouldn't keep them as faces of the anime once we get to the next generation. They'd want to market the next set of starters. They typically don't replace characters' first Pokemon and doing that would feel pretty forced anyway. It was even more apparent once Sprigatito and Fuecoco started to evolve, but even before then, their most recognizable Pokemon being from Scarlet/Violet made it pretty likely that they wouldn't stick around once a new generation is announced. Even if they didn't evolve them, Liko and Roy are too associated with the ninth generation, similar to how Goh was still tied to the eighth generation due to being mostly associated with his Galar starters despite being exclusive to the anime.

A timeskip is certainly different for the Pokemon anime, but it doesn't really get me that excited either. It feels very much like a surface level change, something design more so to give the anime more promotional material more so than anything else. One of these days I'll finally start watching Horizons, but the excitement for having slightly older protagonist reminds me of one reason why I haven't yet. A lot of the praise I've heard for the series come off as people being excited for surface level stuff or just because it's different, ie Liko is not Ash therefore she's a great lead character. While it is likely that they'll just have new main characters for the next series, I still find that more sad than exciting, or at least that doesn't sound as appealing to me as it does to some other fans.

The funny thing is at least prior to SM and JN, you could arguably say it seemed like Ash was aging in terms of design, even if the websites said he was still 10, it was never said in the series itself outside of BW's first ep by the narrator, and you could just overlook it because well..it was BW.

Admittedly, I did enjoy speculating how much had passed between each series back in the day, but that was more of headcanon kind of stuff rather than something confirmed or even that I firmly believed in. I don't think it's entirely fair to ignore BW or even the official Japanese websites. BW is still canon and the official websites still count for something too. Despite toying with the idea of Ash getting older before, I didn't really have an issue with him being forever ten. Ash would still be the same whether he's ten or twenty. It wouldn't change the kind of stories they could have told or made him a different character, so aging him would have been a surface level change. Plus, I kind of liked how strange time in the anime could be. Professor Kukui and Burnet had a kid after SM, but Ash is still ten, which is just so hilariously nonsensical that I love it.

 

[AlwaysInTheZone]

True, many of the decisions in Horizons are to pander to the outspoken Ash-complainers, but one of the largest issues with Horizons is the inability for us to get any quirky captures not directly for merchandising, Pokemon has just plain lost its comedy

If not for Dot, I'd want to meet those Gen 10 protagonists right now

 

[CyberCubed]

I'm just glad they didn't go back to the 8 Gym plot, which is what I thought they would do if Ash ever left. Horizons being more of an adventure series makes it fresh. Even if this series isn't perfect, you have to hand it to the writing staff for trying something new. With all these new characters, lore, and some stuff from the games, it's the most fresh the anime has been in since like...2001.

 

[Light Lucario]

I'm just glad they didn't go back to the 8 Gym plot, which is what I thought they would do if Ash ever left. Horizons being more of an adventure series makes it fresh. Even if this series isn't perfect, you have to hand it to the writing staff for trying something new. With all these new characters, lore, and some stuff from the games, it's the most fresh the anime has been in since like...2001.

I can't really judge Horizons yet, but I have my doubts that it will feel that fresh to me, mainly because I didn't think that was an issue with the anime beforehand. Each series still felt distinct enough and tackled different ideas with its storylines even with Ash the protagonist. That's a big reason why I didn't think that the issue was keeping Ash around. Maybe it wasn't different enough for some fans and I could understand that, but people acted as if the anime wasn't taking risks or making big changes until SM or Horizons when I simply don't agree with that. I don't know if I can give them that much credit for trying something new either. Again, a lot of the praise I've heard for Horizons come down to it's different therefore it is good/better than what came before, which still feels a bit too shallow praise for my tastes.

Honestly, I find if more disappointing that we couldn't get back to the Gym formula even with new protagonists. I'm sure that the staff didn't want to jump back into that right after the Master Class due to both from a productive standpoint and wanting to make Liko and Roy more distinct from Ash. While that is understandable, it was still disappointing since people were saying that Ash couldn't go back to doing Gym battles, despite the fact that most of his strongest opponents in the PWC were Gym Leaders, and going through the Gym challenge is the easiest way to showcase new Pokemon, locations and characters from the newest games. The lack of Sword/Shield characters and Pokemon featured in Journeys was really disappointing. Even by the end of the series, I think about half of the Gym Leaders were missing and a good chuck of Pokemon were never featured. I know that Journeys wasn't specifically focused on promoting Sword/Shield, but they really treated it as an afterthought and that wasn't really satisfying, especially when they spent so much time showcasing older Pokemon instead. That's one reason why I wasn't thrilled with Horizons being another world tour format series, although I think that they've been in Paldea for awhile.

From what I've seen and heard, Horizons does a much better job showcasing Pokemon and characters from Scarlet/Violet, which is great, but I wouldn't be opposed to them tackling the Gym formula again down the road. Assuming that Horizons ends next year when the tenth generation games come out, the anime wouldn't have tackled the Gym challenge for seven years. It's even longer if we don't consider the Island Challenge in SM as the stand-in for the Gym challenge. Plenty of kids wouldn't have seen a Gym badge quest, so it would be fresh for both new and long time fans. Gym battles are such a huge staple of the main series games, so I don't think it's unlikely for the anime to do something with them again.

 

[CyberCubed]

The truth is even doing a Gym challenge isn't that interesting, because it would be a carbon copy of Ash's goal/role. That's why they didn't do it, besides having them battle Gym leaders in a training arc which wasn't for badges.

Ash's story should of ended long ago, even SM could have played out exactly as it did with the same cast just without Ash/TR coming back. Just have some new kid meet the Alola crew, Kukui would have the father dynamic with him, and everyone else like Kiawe/Lana/Mallow/Lillie/Sophocles, etc. could have all been the same as they were. SM would have worked just fine as a reboot without Ash returning (of course I'd have him with the Kalos league to give him a proper sendoff, etc). And Journey's would just be something else entirely since Ash would have been gone, could have had Go and someone else I guess since Pokemon Go heavily influenced that series.

Even XY if you take away the animation boost was just ok, it had its good points but looking back it was just more of the same from AG/DP without much to stand out to make it much different. People only latched onto it as hard as they did because Ash looked older/competent, people liked shipping with Serena, and people thought he was going to win the league. Bonnie/Clemont were great though at least. Hell Ash's lack of a rival till halfway through it really made it feel like AG again too. I can see why the younger generation liked it so much though. It was a fine 7/10 series boosted by really good animation for Pokemon standards and the people who liked the shipping and/or AshGreninja.

I remember saying since 2010 Ash's story should of wrapped up. While I did get my wishes, I wish it didn't have to take yet another 13 years till 2023. And I still didn't get the TR/Giovanni finale yet, so I suspect we'll get that if/when Ash gets a movie/special down the road.

 

[Light Lucario]

The truth is even doing a Gym challenge isn't that interesting, because it would be a carbon copy of Ash's goal/role. That's why they didn't do it, besides having them battle Gym leaders in a training arc which wasn't for badges.

I don't think that's why they didn't do it. They can make a Gym challenge without making the main character a carbon copy of Ash. Both May and Dawn had the same goal, but both their personalities and Contest arcs were still different. I don't think it would be that hard to do, especially when there has been a long break of a traditional Gym badge quest in the anime. The Adventures manga series has done multiple Gym badge journeys with characters that have different personalities and goals. Granted, that is a different medium with different writers involved, but my point is that it is more than doable to make a Gym challenge different from Ash.

Ash's story should of ended long ago, even SM could have played out exactly as it did with the same cast just without Ash/TR coming back. Just have some new kid meet the Alola crew, Kukui would have the father dynamic with him, and everyone else like Kiawe/Lana/Mallow/Lillie/Sophocles, etc. could have all been the same as they were. SM would have worked just fine as a reboot without Ash returning (of course I'd have him with the Kalos league to give him a proper sendoff, etc). And Journey's would just be something else entirely since Ash would have been gone, could have had Go and someone else I guess since Pokemon Go heavily influenced that series.

I still highly disagree that SM would have played out the same without Ash. Ash's personality in SM wasn't so different that he could have been replaced with a different character. The father/son dynamic between Ash and Professor Kukui was memorable in large part because Ash never had that kind of dynamic before. Putting in a new character in Ash's place wouldn't have made that connection or their battle at the end of the series nearly as memorable as it. Ash's dynamic with the other characters wouldn't have been the same with a new lead either. I just don't see Ash as being so easily replaceable in SM given his personality, role in the overall storyline and dynamic with most of the cast.

I love Goh, but I don't think he could have been the main character of Journeys either. He was designed to be a co-lead with Ash and their dynamic was a big part of the series. That couldn't be easily replaced with just another lead character. Both their dynamic and most likely Goh's personality/story would have been pretty different if he was design to bounce off another character. I still don't understand why people think that Pokemon Go heavily influenced Journeys. That isn't to say that there isn't any connection to Pokemon Go, but it's all pretty surface level stuff. The only connections to Pokemon Go I can recall were Goh's name, his catching method, I think the concept of Max Raid battles since they were more similar to Raid battles in Pokemon Go and Pokemon eggs having the generic designs. That's far from being heavily influenced by Pokemon Go. Goh's first Pokemon was Scorbunny and they didn't start adding in more Pokemon from the Galar region until last year, well after Journeys wrapped up. I just think fans really exaggerate how much influence or promotion Pokemon Go had in Journeys.

Even XY if you take away the animation boost was just ok, it had its good points but looking back it was just more of the same from AG/DP without much to stand out to make it much different. People only latched onto it as hard as they did because Ash looked older/competent, people liked shipping with Serena, and people thought he was going to win the league. Bonnie/Clemont were great though at least. Hell Ash's lack of a rival till halfway through it really made it feel like AG again too. I can see why the younger generation liked it so much though. It was a fine 7/10 series boosted by really good animation for Pokemon standards and the people who liked the shipping and/or AshGreninja.

I disagree that there wasn't too much to make XY stand out from AG/DP. The group dynamic was still distinctly different, the Gym battles were pretty solid, Ash's team had some good moments and both Serena and Clemont had some good character development. The Team Flare arc was also a huge highlight of the series. It had some great emotional moments, every character in the main cast got a chance to shine and it was a satisfying payoff to the Team Flare storyline. I still think that Team Galatic were overall handled better in DP, in large part to how they were a major storyline over the course of the series instead of just for one year, but the Team Flare arc was still really good. I wouldn't dismiss all of its praise to just people thinking that Ash looking more competent, liking his pairing with Serena and thinking he was going to win the Kalos Leagues. Those were factors for some fans for sure, but I think that dismisses a lot of what works in XY. I wouldn't even say that it was just younger fans who liked it since plenty of long time fans enjoyed it too.

I remember saying since 2010 Ash's story should of wrapped up. While I did get my wishes, I wish it didn't have to take yet another 13 years till 2023. And I still didn't get the TR/Giovanni finale yet, so I suspect we'll get that if/when Ash gets a movie/special down the road.

I wish that it didn't happen myself honestly. I just never felt like Ash needed to be replaced and while I'm sure that I'll enjoy Horizons whenever I get around to it, I doubt that the series will change my mind in that regard. I don't really see the need for a Team Rocket/Giovanni finale. I don't think that they'd want to get rid of the Team Rocket organization for at least two reasons. They're the most iconic evil team in the franchise, so this gives them a way to introduce new Team Rocket members into the anime whenever they want to. The Team Rocket trio love being in Team Rocket, so even with them not being in the cast, they probably would want it so that they could still be in Team Rocket. I'm sure that we'll get something for Ash eventually, but I just don't see the need for a final showdown between Ash and Team Rocket when that was never really a goal in the anime.

 

[AlwaysInTheZone]

It's been 2 years Light Lucario, and ironically, they're giving you a light colored Lucario

Hope you'll get out of this closed-minded cycle soon

 

[Light Lucario]

It's been 2 years Light Lucario, and ironically, they're giving you a light colored Lucario

Hope you'll get out of this closed-minded cycle soon

I have seen the Shiny Mega Lucario and oddly enough, it doesn't really excite me. I still love Lucario of course, but Roy being given a Shiny Mega Lucario possibly off-screen feels less like a cool development and more like an attempt to make Roy stand out by giving him a really popular Pokemon. I can't blame them for wanting to include Mega Lucario. It's a popular Pokemon and it's the first Mega Pokemon you can get in X/Y if I recall correctly, but doing so not too long after Ash had his own Mega Lucario doesn't really seem exciting, especially when I don't think that they handled Ash's Lucario particularly well after it evolved anyway.

Insulting me by belittling my opinion as being closed minded is not going to get me to watch Horizons. If anything, it's going to do the opposite. It's already on the backburner for a lot of reasons, so insulting me is going to push it further back. Why should I bother even talking about it here whenever I do watch it if I'm already being insulted for not watching it?

 

[CyberCubed]

A lot of people find the shiny Lucario lame because we just had Ash's Lucario all throughout JN. If they wanted to promote Mega's again in Horizons, they could have given Roy any of the other Mega's we barely see in the anime. Instead they're using Mega Lucario AGAIN, which is boring.

Hell they could of given him a Mega Alakazam, or Mega Slowbro, or Mega Absol, or something we hadn't seen too much.