Pokemon Thread

[AlwaysInTheZone]

We're almost to episode 75, you really should hop on Horizons Light Lucario

 

[Light Lucario]

We're almost to episode 75, you really should hop on Horizons Light Lucario

I'll probably check it out eventually. I've just been busy and binge watching other shows instead.

 

[J'onn J'onzz]

One thing that made Unova feel different is some of the recurring characters from the first four generations stopped appearing, like Gary, Butch and Cassidy. It seemed to be an effort to appeal to a new generation who were too young to be familiar with throwbacks like James’ fiancée and the scams of the Magikarp salesman.

We have been critical of the Unova cast in this thread, but what do you all think of the supporting cast in Journeys? I felt like Chloe’s story was incomplete. She didn’t appear all that much, and when she did it was just to highlight Eeveelutions usually. In the end, she doesn’t even evolve the Eevee.

Go received more spotlight by far, but I didn’t care for the way he effortlessly caught so many Pokemon without even battling. He didn’t exactly have much character development when everything came so easy to him. There were times where he was too overbearing and Ash didn’t even appear or had a minor role in the episode. Still, it was nice for Ash to have a male friend his own age to bond with.

 

[CyberCubed]

No, I'm pretty sure that people complained about the anime before BW. As much as I love DP, the Sinnoh League was the first controversial defeat for Ash. People to this day still complain about Tobias, wishing that Ash could defeat him now as if that would mean anything to anyone besides those still bitter about that battle after all these years I'm sure that people wanted Ash to be replaced well before BW too. Some fans weren't a fan of the pacing, especially the year gap between Ash's seventh and eighth badges, even though a lot of huge developments happened during that time. Not to mention the backlash towards Misty's departure. The notion that the complaints were just minor quibbles prior to BW really isn't true.

OS/AG/DP were three different series. You can argue that they felt more well connected compared to later series, but they were still largely stand alone series. You didn't need to see OS to watch DP.

Because while of course every individual season has its own issues, the show as a whole still had a stronger sense of continuity back then. Most of the major issues from the anime came from the second half of the series in the 2010 decade, to various degrees. I mean you know as much as I complain about Johto, it's issues are relatively minor in the grand scheme of things since you can just skip over most of the filler or marathon it compared to when it aired. A lot of the things that happened in BW onward actively damaged Ash or the narrative of the show, hence the bigger issues. While I do like SM, it has the worst Ash redesign of the series and I can understand why people find it difficult to watch SM if they don't like the way Ash looks. A lot of these issues are a bigger deal.

 

[Light Lucario]

One thing that made Unova feel different is some of the recurring characters from the first four generations stopped appearing, like Gary, Butch and Cassidy. It seemed to be an effort to appeal to a new generation who were too young to be familiar with throwbacks like James’ fiancée and the scams of the Magikarp salesman.

BW is often considered a soft reboot among fans. While I wouldn't go that far, I think that they were initially trying to match with the games where only new Pokemon were featured. The marketing for B/W really emphasized how far Unova was from other regions and that older Pokemon weren't available until the post-storyline. The anime was following suit in that regard until B2/W2 promotion started.

We have been critical of the Unova cast in this thread, but what do you all think of the supporting cast in Journeys? I felt like Chloe’s story was incomplete. She didn’t appear all that much, and when she did it was just to highlight Eeveelutions usually. In the end, she doesn’t even evolve the Eevee.

I like Chloe. She had some good focus episodes during the first season. Those made her choosing to be Eevee's trainer feel like satisfying payoff to her slowly becoming more interested in Pokemon. I'd disagree that her story was incomplete. She didn't want to choose a goal by the end of the series, but she was still more confident and able to explore more on her own. It may not be a satisfying conclusion and having her be used to just showcase Eeveelutions was rather disappointing, but it was still a conclusion. Unless they were going to create a new Eeveelution for the next games, I don't think Eevee evolving would have been particularly exciting.

Even when she was used to highlight Eeveelutions, most of Chloe's episodes were pretty good. She really should have been upgraded to a main character after she became a trainer. She rarely actually traveled with Ash and Goh, which was a huge shame. I liked the dynamics between Ash and Goh, but having Chloe in the mix wouldn't have been bad. It felt like a huge step backwards to have the two boys going on adventures while the token girl was left behind holding her Eevee in her arms. She was treated more like a supporting character as opposed to a female lead, which is a huge shame.

Go received more spotlight by far, but I didn’t care for the way he effortlessly caught so many Pokemon without even battling. He didn’t exactly have much character development when everything came so easy to him. There were times where he was too overbearing and Ash didn’t even appear or had a minor role in the episode. Still, it was nice for Ash to have a male friend his own age to bond with.

I love Goh. I think that he got way too much hate over the course of Journeys. I never had a problem with his catching method since they wanted both Ash and Goh to represent the battling and catching elements respectively of the franchise. He's obviously a nod to Pokemon Go, but I don't think he really promotes the mobile game. Aside from his name and catching method, he doesn't really connect to the game itself. His first Pokemon was Scorbunny and they didn't even add the Galar starters to Pokemon Go until this year, well after Journeys wrapped up. It never felt like everything came easy to Goh just because he threw his Pokeballs around. That didn't always work, or even on the first try, and I think he had some pretty solid focused episodes, especially with both Scorbunny and Sobble. It felt like he had become a more confident and empathetic person from his adventures, resulting in his encounter with Mew. I absolutely loved his scene with Drizzle. It was one of the most emotional and relatable moments in the entire anime for me.

It was a huge issue how they kept giving him different unevolved Pokemon as his main partner. While I really liked Goh's bond with Cinderace, it basically disappears into the background in favor of Sobble. The same thing happens to Sobble once it evolves and Grookey does virtually nothing for the rest of the series. They wanted to showcase the Galar starters with Goh since Ash didn't get one, but putting the evolved starters on the backburner was a huge shame. Most of Goh's Pokemon couldn't really be characters since he caught so many. That didn't bother me. They couldn't give fleshed out personalities for every single Pokemon he caught, but that did make it harder for fans to be invested in his goal. They also probably should have introduced Project Mew earlier than they did, if only to give more structure to Goh's goal. Still, I'd consider Goh a huge highlight of Journeys.

Because while of course every individual season has its own issues, the show as a whole still had a stronger sense of continuity back then. Most of the major issues from the anime came from the second half of the series in the 2010 decade, to various degrees. I mean you know as much as I complain about Johto, it's issues are relatively minor in the grand scheme of things since you can just skip over most of the filler or marathon it compared to when it aired. A lot of the things that happened in BW onward actively damaged Ash or the narrative of the show, hence the bigger issues. While I do like SM, it has the worst Ash redesign of the series and I can understand why people find it difficult to watch SM if they don't like the way Ash looks. A lot of these issues are a bigger deal.

No, people still had major issues with the anime before BW. You couldn't really skip or marathon through Johto fillers that easily back in the day for example. Just because there was a stronger sense of continuity with the first three series doesn't mean that there weren't major issues or people weren't complaining about Ash still being the main lead until BW. I'd say that Ash's redesign in SM wasn't a huge deal, or at least not a bigger deal compared to other issues people had.

 

[CyberCubed]

No, people still had major issues with the anime before BW. You couldn't really skip or marathon through Johto fillers that easily back in the day for example. Just because there was a stronger sense of continuity with the first three series doesn't mean that there weren't major issues or people weren't complaining about Ash still being the main lead until BW. I'd say that Ash's redesign in SM wasn't a huge deal, or at least not a bigger deal compared to other issues people had.

That's why I said now, you can skip over/marathon episodes so the issues when it aired for any season are less instead of waiting 1 new ep a week to air over 3 years. Yes people always complained Ash lost leagues, but the boiling point happened in the later seasons. And Ash's design change is a very big deal, even to this day I see people complain how Ash looks in SM or they barely gave SM a chance or didn't watch it simply due to his design. It's a shame but it is what it is. There's a reason the JN design tweaked Ash's look again to make him look somewhat similar to his older design (if just a little younger looking).

Of course all the older seasons were far from perfect and I of course remember the big complaints/issues every season had, but they weren't really dealbreakers as a whole if you enjoyed the anime. It's the main reason most of us original fans watched through the show all those years after all.

 

[Light Lucario]

That's why I said now, you can skip over/marathon episodes so the issues when it aired for any season are less instead of waiting 1 new ep a week to air over 3 years. Yes people always complained Ash lost leagues, but the boiling point happened in the later seasons. And Ash's design change is a very big deal, even to this day I see people complain how Ash looks in SM or they barely gave SM a chance or didn't watch it simply due to his design. It's a shame but it is what it is. There's a reason the JN design tweaked Ash's look again to make him look somewhat similar to his older design (if just a little younger looking).

I'd argue that the boiling point for Ash losing Leagues started with DP. While the backlash with the Kalos League was arguably bigger and could have resulted in his victories in the following series, the Sinnoh League was his first controversial defeat. I don't think many fans had issues with losing the Johto or Hoenn Leagues by comparison. Meanwhile, people still complain about Tobias. Major complaints happened before BW. It didn't just start with Ash losing to Trip or being confirmed to still be ten. Those were obviously considered big issues, but the notion that the issues with the first three series were more minor just isn't really true.

Personally, I don't think that Ash's design change in SM was a big deal. A lot of people didn't like it initially, but that cooled down after awhile. Honestly, I always thought that people exaggerated about the art style in SM. I can understand not liking it, but being a huge enough turnoff to not watch the series is rather strange to me. The reception for SM was already pretty positive even before the Alola League. It may not be as beloved as DP or XY, but I don't think it's considered one of the weaker series. I would assume that the people who didn't give it a chance are in the minority compared to people who did like it.

Of course all the older seasons were far from perfect and I of course remember the big complaints/issues every season had, but they weren't really dealbreakers as a whole if you enjoyed the anime. It's the main reason most of us original fans watched through the show all those years after all.

I think you can say that for the complaints in later series too. People didn't like how the Kalos League turned out or how there were so little references to past series in XY, but that didn't stop people from enjoying the series. It's still probably one of the more popular series online at least. Plenty of people enjoy BW too even with it being more infamous among fans. Depending on what you like about the anime, most of the major complaints people have with each series might not be really deal breakers.

 

[J'onn J'onzz]

I have actually seen some people complain about Ash losing the first Pokemon league. I think that complaint is most common among people who only saw Kanto. In my opinion it was very necessary for Ash to lose in the Indigo Plateau. He spent too many episodes fooling around on the beach and in Hollywood before the League. Charizard refusing to obey wasn’t some cop out; it was the continuation of a plot of Ash failing to control it ever since it was Charmeleon. His bond with Charizard improves in later seasons like Orange Islands and Johto.

 

[Light Lucario]

I have actually seen some people complain about Ash losing the first Pokemon league. I think that complaint is most common among people who only saw Kanto. In my opinion it was very necessary for Ash to lose in the Indigo Plateau. He spent too many episodes fooling around on the beach and in Hollywood before the League. Charizard refusing to obey wasn’t some cop out; it was the continuation of a plot of Ash failing to control it ever since it was Charmeleon. His bond with Charizard improves in later seasons like Orange Islands and Johto.

Yeah, I've seen those complaints too. I could understand being annoyed with that battle having so much buildup only for it to last a short amount of time or that Ash could have potentially won if he hadn't been chased by Team Rocket for most of the episode, but I never had an issue with it myself. Even Professor Oak said that maybe he could have gone further if he had trained Charizard more properly. He didn't spend much time prior to the League actually training, relied on beginner's luck with his Kingler and Muk and was just not ready to win anything at that point. Getting to the Top 16 with his amount of training and battles made sense.

 

[CyberCubed]

Heh, I looked at some old posts I made in 2010/2011 wishing Ash's story wrapped with DP and how it seemed like they were semi-rebooting Ash in BW. I also said if they ever replace Ash they can just have a different Pikachu on the cast instead so the mascot is still there, and funnily enough that's exactly what happened with Pokemon Horizons and Captain Pikachu.

The whole, "Ash can never be replaced" thing always felt strange to me. Sure they kept him a long time, but when you stop to think about if Ash would still be here 30, 40, 50+ years from now, it always felt odd. He lasted 26 years, basically a quarter of a century, and that was basically pushing it. I'd still be content if he left after DP or XY, just have him win those leagues and have him battle Cynthia or other champions back then for a proper sendoff.

It's so weird everything I said 10-15 years ago was right, when people were trying to tell me over and over that Ash will never be wrapped up or leave the show. It's funny I was right, about both that and Misty never returning to the main cast (at least for a full 100+ ep saga again, obviously MPM doesn't really count).

Everything I said was right.

 

[Light Lucario]

Heh, I looked at some old posts I made in 2010/2011 wishing Ash's story wrapped with DP and how it seemed like they were semi-rebooting Ash in BW. I also said if they ever replace Ash they can just have a different Pikachu on the cast instead so the mascot is still there, and funnily enough that's exactly what happened with Pokemon Horizons and Captain Pikachu.

The whole, "Ash can never be replaced" thing always felt strange to me. Sure they kept him a long time, but when you stop to think about if Ash would still be here 30, 40, 50+ years from now, it always felt odd. He lasted 26 years, basically a quarter of a century, and that was basically pushing it. I'd still be content if he left after DP or XY, just have him win those leagues and have him battle Cynthia or other champions back then for a proper sendoff.

It never felt weird to me. Ash has been the face of the anime for decades and there have been other main characters who have stuck around longer than that too. The anime's structure also made it pretty easy to keep him around. The point of the anime wasn't for Ash to become a Champion, despite the iconic English dub opening says. It was just about Ash and Pikachu going on adventures with their friends and meeting more Pokemon along the way. That's what I think at least. That's why I don't think he necessarily needed closure.

He needed to win more, especially when they were coming up with more controversial defeats for him, but they didn't need to make him a World Champion. Even how much closure Ash has is debatable when he still doesn't consider himself a Pokemon Master and he's traveling off-screen. It gives Ash a big accomplishment before being replaced, but I'm not sure how much closure that provides to him or really his story.

It's so weird everything I said 10-15 years ago was right, when people were trying to tell me over and over that Ash will never be wrapped up or leave the show. It's funny I was right, about both that and Misty never returning to the main cast (at least for a full 100+ ep saga again, obviously MPM doesn't really count).

Everything I said was right.

Do you really need to bat yourself on the back like this? Just because Misty didn't join the main cast again, which was obviously the case from the start anyway, and that Ash was eventually replaced over a decade after you started talking about it isn't really impressive. Like a lot of fans, you kept saying that each series was going to be Ash's last series since DP. The fact that something that I'd argue was unlikely eventually did happen doesn't really make you right. Like the old saying goes, a broken clock is right twice a day.

 

[CyberCubed]

Well you're right, but it was inevitable I say. When they started revising Ash's character per series (like XY to SM, etc.) with different designs you can tell even the writers themselves were having trouble justifying Ash being around, and at the same time with Movie 20 we had the reboot AU Ash as well, so they even flirted with the idea of rebooting Ash in the movie universe at the same time all this was going on. All the writers generally knew this, they were just reluctant to replace Ash until social media became widespread and they actually saw how the fans were reacting to each series.

In general though it was long overdue. They did keep Ash's story open so he could be revisited in movies or specials down the road which I'm fine with, same reason TR didn't get an ending. But we don't need him for a full 100+ ep saga again, after Horizons ends we'll likely just have all-new casts every generation now, which they should have done like every other anime does at least a decade ago.

I am still waiting for my Giovanni/TR conclusion that I never got, which I hope is being saved for a movie/special (maybe the 30th anniversary which is coming up soon), and we'll finally get that. It's another thing I've been predicting for awhile, and I'll pat myself on the back for this too if I turn out right. lol.

(as an aside, it's also amusing to me Pokeshipping never happened, even with Misty around for the last 10 episodes. Not that I really care much about shipping to begin with, but most of those rants back in the day were from shippers and how they thought Ash and Misty had to become a couple. The fact that Serena exists and Pokeshipping never happened is honestly ironic and funny too)

 

[Light Lucario]

Well you're right, but it was inevitable I say. When they started revising Ash's character per series (like XY to SM, etc.) with different designs you can tell even the writers themselves were having trouble justifying Ash being around, and at the same time with Movie 20 we had the reboot AU Ash as well, so they even flirted with the idea of rebooting Ash in the movie universe at the same time all this was going on. All the writers generally knew this, they were just reluctant to replace Ash until social media became widespread and they actually saw how the fans were reacting to each series.

Ash's designs started to change with BW, so I don't think that was a sign of the writers trying to justify keeping Ash around. Same with the I Choose You Movie. That was clearly done as both an anniversary for the anime, as well as trying to make the movies more fresh. I think that the movies had gotten stale by that point and they had been performing more poorly in the box office for awhile too. So going for a full on reboot was done more so to help the movies feel more distinct from the main series as opposed to a sign that the writers were reluctant to replace Ash.

I'm also not too confident that seeing fans reacting to each series on social media was that huge of a factor for this decision. Most of the people reacting online typically are well outside the target demographic, so I don't know if they'd replace Ash just because of all the long time fans throwing a fit over the Kalos League.

In general though it was long overdue. They did keep Ash's story open so he could be revisited in movies or specials down the road which I'm fine with, same reason TR didn't get an ending. But we don't need him for a full 100+ ep saga again, after Horizons ends we'll likely just have all-new casts every generation now, which they should have done like every other anime does at least a decade ago.

I don't think it would be impossible for Ash to become a lead character again, if only for the nostalgia and marketing factor. There were still plenty of fans who were upset over Ash being replaced too. While they probably will go for a new cast every generation now, I find that more depressing, or at least not that appealing. Ash being the lead character for so long helped to make the Pokemon anime stand out more among other toyetic franchises. That was a feature of the anime, not a bug that needed to be fixed. The notion that they're just like every other long running toyetic franchise that changes up the entire cast every few years just doesn't sound as satisfying to me, partly because it feels way too late to really make that transition work. Other franchises do that after their first series, not with their seventh.

I am still waiting for my Giovanni/TR conclusion that I never got, which I hope is being saved for a movie/special (maybe the 30th anniversary which is coming up soon), and we'll finally get that. It's another thing I've been predicting for awhile, and I'll pat myself on the back for this too if I turn out right. lol.

I'm surprised people really wanted that when defeating Giovanni or Team Rocket as a whole was never much of an objective. They did that with other evil teams to better match the storylines from the games, but they didn't really follow much of the storyline for R/B and G/S in that regard. Patting yourself on the back if you turn out to be right about that will still come off pretty smug and arrogant rather than anything impressive.

(as an aside, it's also amusing to me Pokeshipping never happened, even with Misty around for the last 10 episodes. Not that I really care much about shipping to begin with, but most of those rants back in the day were from shippers and how they thought Ash and Misty had to become a couple. The fact that Serena exists and Pokeshipping never happened is honestly ironic and funny too)

Romance was never going to be a huge deal for the anime. That wasn't the point of Ash's story. He's an oblivious ten year old boy who wants to meet Pokemon. He was never going to end up with anyone, let alone another ten year old girl. I still think that writing off the complaints about Misty's departure as being from shippers doesn't make sense. Even Serena's crush didn't end with them being endgame or anything like that.

 

[J'onn J'onzz]

A lot of people got the idea about Ash and Misty being destined to be together because of 4Kids’ changes. There is a line that was mistranslated in Johto where Misty says to Ash “you and I will be married someday too.”

Ash & Misty's Pokémon Relationship Was MUCH Different in Japanese

Ash and Misty weren't nearly so romantically entwined.

screenrant.com

This article also notes that the part in Pokemon the Movie 2000 where Misty is sputtering about Ash being her boyfriend is a dub mistranslation too.

 

[Light Lucario]

4Kids typically added a lot of shipping dialogue for their dubs, so doing that for Ash and Misty wasn't out of the ordinary. They were still pulling this stuff for GX and 5D's. It did probably add a bit of fuel for the shippers, along with some of the shipping songs on those Pokemon soundtracks.

 

[CyberCubed]

Ash's designs started to change with BW, so I don't think that was a sign of the writers trying to justify keeping Ash around. Same with the I Choose You Movie. That was clearly done as both an anniversary for the anime, as well as trying to make the movies more fresh. I think that the movies had gotten stale by that point and they had been performing more poorly in the box office for awhile too. So going for a full on reboot was done more so to help the movies feel more distinct from the main series as opposed to a sign that the writers were reluctant to replace Ash.

I'm also not too confident that seeing fans reacting to each series on social media was that huge of a factor for this decision. Most of the people reacting online typically are well outside the target demographic, so I don't know if they'd replace Ash just because of all the long time fans throwing a fit over the Kalos League.

It was likely a build-up of years from the 2010 decade. From the early 2000's the writers were reluctant to even get rid of Brock, hence him lasting all the way through DP. By the time we got after that the writers gave Ash new groups every gen, making it obvious the entire cast could have been replaced earlier. Hell the SM anime could have played out exactly as it did without Ash/TR coming back (just with some exceptions), and having some new male lead interact with the same Alola cast and become champion. Ash's departure was something that was long overdue. Also kids will probably move on because now there's going to be new gen of kids growing up without Ash and in the future, so they won't have any nostalgia for him.

I'm surprised people really wanted that when defeating Giovanni or Team Rocket as a whole was never much of an objective. They did that with other evil teams to better match the storylines from the games, but they didn't really follow much of the storyline for R/B and G/S in that regard. Patting yourself on the back if you turn out to be right about that will still come off pretty smug and arrogant rather than anything impressive.

Because TR deserve closure rather than following Ash around forever. I can only assume the writers left them open because Horizons is/was a big risk, and they left the Ash/TR formula fairly open-ended in case they have to return to it. But Horizons has been successful, so I doubt we'll see them outside of specials/movies. They can wrap up TR there for the most part. It's no different than Ash being used in the other villain team finales, it's not like he goes out searching for them but the plot finds him.

Anyway Ash has over 1,200+ episodes, 23 movies, and a number of specials about him or his friend.s That's enough for us to rewatch for the rest of our lives. Honestly no character should be around 1000+ episodes, even when we were only 500-600 eps into the anime that felt like too much.

 

[Light Lucario]

It was likely a build-up of years from the 2010 decade. From the early 2000's the writers were reluctant to even get rid of Brock, hence him lasting all the way through DP. By the time we got after that the writers gave Ash new groups every gen, making it obvious the entire cast could have been replaced earlier. Hell the SM anime could have played out exactly as it did without Ash/TR coming back (just with some exceptions), and having some new male lead interact with the same Alola cast and become champion. Ash's departure was something that was long overdue. Also kids will probably move on because now there's going to be new gen of kids growing up without Ash and in the future, so they won't have any nostalgia for him.

I don't think that Brock stuck around as long as he did because they were reluctant to get rid of him exactly. I assume that they didn't want to replace both him and Misty for AG since that might have been too much of a risk. More importantly, there wasn't a character from the games that could have taken his role in those generations. They already replaced him once, so even though they brought him back after the Orange Islands, I don't think that they were reluctant to do it again for so long.

I really disagree that SM would have played out exactly as it did without Ash and Team Rocket. Ash's personality wasn't that different in SM to where you could easily replace him with a brand new character. Team Rocket also had a lot of focus in SM, many fans consider it one of their best series in that regard, so I don't think that they could be removed so easily either. Considering how iconic Ash is, there's going to be nostalgia for him. Even with new kids growing up with new leads in the future, that won't mean Ash will be forgotten. First protagonists of long running franchises tend to be used for nostalgia and marketing pretty often, so I don't think Ash will be any different in that regard.

Because TR deserve closure rather than following Ash around forever. I can only assume the writers left them open because Horizons is/was a big risk, and they left the Ash/TR formula fairly open-ended in case they have to return to it. But Horizons has been successful, so I doubt we'll see them outside of specials/movies. They can wrap up TR there for the most part. It's no different than Ash being used in the other villain team finales, it's not like he goes out searching for them but the plot finds him.

Team Rocket following after Ash is pretty fitting for their characters though. It makes sense that they'd still want his Pikachu just as much as it does that Ash would want to keep on traveling even after becoming a World Champion. Ash doesn't search for evil teams to defeat them, but having him defeat Team Rocket once and for all just doesn't really sound that appealing or interesting to me. The Team Rocket trio love being in Team Rocket and while they have been shown capable managing other jobs better, they still prefer being in Team Rocket.

I'm still not sure how successful Horizons has been exactly. It isn't unpopular or unsuccessful, but like I said earlier, hearing little about it beyond new opening themes or when Pokemon evolve is rather strange to me. Even if it has been successful, I still don't think it would be impossible for Ash to be the main lead again.

Anyway Ash has over 1,200+ episodes, 23 movies, and a number of specials about him or his friend.s That's enough for us to rewatch for the rest of our lives. Honestly no character should be around 1000+ episodes, even when we were only 500-600 eps into the anime that felt like too much.

Like I've said before, I never had an issue with Ash being the lead for so long. That was a feature of the anime, a way to give it a unique identity among long running toyetic franchises. Losing that does feel like losing something important, at least in my opinion. I know that he has a ton of episodes and movies, but I personally miss the familiarity that came with him being the lead. I loved speculating on what Pokemon Ash would get, who his traveling companions would be and which starter he'd get with every new generation. I can speculate teams for Liko, Roy and Dot, but it just isn't the same, especially when they aren't going to have full teams most likely. Ash was guaranteed to have at least five or six captures with every series. The anime also seems to be more interested in making anime only characters instead of putting characters from the games in the main cast. It kind of makes sense when both Journeys and Horizons are world traveling series, but that is something I miss a lot too.

 

[J'onn J'onzz]

In some ways Pokemon has some similarities to another extremely long running show, Doctor Who. This is probably a coincidence as I have no idea if Japan even has a dub of Dr Who. Still, every few years, the main character has a fresh face. The fandom is divided over who the best Doctor is, even though they are all the same character. The reason is because each incarnation has a fresh personality with his own eccentricities. The companions also rotate often, with the more popular ones occasionally returning on special occasions. Again, this is not necessarily something the Pokemon writers deliberately took inspiration from, but it is a way to manage extra long shows. It keeps the show fresh, and every few years a new generation of fans can hop on after a regeneration of the main character.

Ash’s design makeovers are not as visually extreme as the Doctor’s, with his wardrobe being the main change, but his relative level of maturity fluctuates. You can look at the way Ash acts in Unova, like scanning Koffing in his Pokédex or forgetting to bring enough Pokemon to a gym battle, and have a different opinion of “Gen V Ash” vs “Gen IV Ash”. He actually performed worse in the Unova league compared to the previous league, when his general trend was improving his league performance over time. So I can see why some fans felt his character was regressing and gave up on the show in Unova. I would recommend people who didn’t like BW check out XY. Kalos was a very solid course correction. It seemed to be a move to go back to what worked in Gen 3-4 and refine what didn’t work. For example I think Bonnie and Clemont had a better brother-sister dynamic than May and Max. Giving Bonnie the Zygarde plot made her more relevant than Max, who never really did anything.

 

[CyberCubed]

The old formula got long stale which is why even in the early 2000's people were complaining about it. There's only so many times you can see Ash go on an 8 Gym quest. He has so many starters most of them that feel redundant or repeat the same arcs as previous ones. So many similar bird pokemon with the same role.

Really DP should of been Ash's final saga, but if not, XY would have been a good place to end it too. JN really only exists to give Ash a "final" type season, but if you had Ash battle champions at the end of a previous series instead, it'd be the same deal. Hell remove Ash from JN and Go could have carried the series himself as a new lead, it's what Go felt like a testing ground for anyway. Arguably better since we'd see him use old pokemon and not just the random JN captures. And Alola would have been written very similar since all the SM characters would still be there, just with a new lead instead.

 

[Light Lucario]

In some ways Pokemon has some similarities to another extremely long running show, Doctor Who. This is probably a coincidence as I have no idea if Japan even has a dub of Dr Who. Still, every few years, the main character has a fresh face. The fandom is divided over who the best Doctor is, even though they are all the same character. The reason is because each incarnation has a fresh personality with his own eccentricities. The companions also rotate often, with the more popular ones occasionally returning on special occasions. Again, this is not necessarily something the Pokemon writers deliberately took inspiration from, but it is a way to manage extra long shows. It keeps the show fresh, and every few years a new generation of fans can hop on after a regeneration of the main character.

Ash’s design makeovers are not as visually extreme as the Doctor’s, with his wardrobe being the main change, but his relative level of maturity fluctuates. You can look at the way Ash acts in Unova, like scanning Koffing in his Pokédex or forgetting to bring enough Pokemon to a gym battle, and have a different opinion of “Gen V Ash” vs “Gen IV Ash”. He actually performed worse in the Unova league compared to the previous league, when his general trend was improving his league performance over time. So I can see why some fans felt his character was regressing and gave up on the show in Unova. I would recommend people who didn’t like BW check out XY. Kalos was a very solid course correction. It seemed to be a move to go back to what worked in Gen 3-4 and refine what didn’t work. For example I think Bonnie and Clemont had a better brother-sister dynamic than May and Max. Giving Bonnie the Zygarde plot made her more relevant than Max, who never really did anything.

That is an interesting comparison. I'm not too familiar with Doctor Who, but I can kind of see the similarities based on the little I know of it.

Considering that Koffing hadn't been featured since the original series and Ash had scanned other Pokemon he's seen before, I never had a problem with that. In-universe, it was better to have new characters like the female leads or Goh to use their Pokedexes instead, but considering that each generation provides new Pokedex entries on even older Pokemon, it just doesn't feel like a big deal for Ash to use his Pokedex. Most of the kids watching BW at the time probably weren't alive when the original series was airing. I don't think Ash forgot to bring enough Pokemon to his Gym battle with Elesa. His goal was to beat her with just one Pokemon. That's arguably worse than just forgetting his Pokemon, especially when he already saw how powerful she was in the previous episode, but it was deliberate.

Despite some infamously bad battles like that, I don't think that BW Ash was quite as bad as fans, including myself, made him out to be at the time. There were still some good Gym battles here and there. The problem was really down to his Pokemon. They gave him so many captures in BW, possibly so that he didn't need to use his older reserves in the Unova League, but he still mainly relied on Pikachu, his starters and Krorodile. That lead to a lot of unearned sudden evolutions and most of his Unvoa Pokemon just not standing out. If he had jus a consistent team throughout the whole series, maybe people wouldn't think that he had regressed that much. Although, the battles could have been fantastic and that wouldn't have made up for Pikachu vs. Snivy either.

I agree that XY is pretty solid though. It felt a bit overhyped during its run and I'd still consider it such, but it's probably my second favorite series behind DP. It was a better paced three year series, the group dynamic was great, Serena had some really solid character development, there were a lot of good battles and the Team Flare arc was a big highlight too. Bonnie definitely felt like the writers learned from Max. Even before Zygarde showed up, she still was effectively Dedenne's trainer and was able to bond with other Pokemon too. The Zygarde storyline really did make her standout and led to some really great emotional moments. I could have done without her running gag of asking random women to marry her brother. The writers really missed Brock's running gag and kept trying to do it with other characters.

The old formula got long stale which is why even in the early 2000's people were complaining about it. There's only so many times you can see Ash go on an 8 Gym quest. He has so many starters most of them that feel redundant or repeat the same arcs as previous ones. So many similar bird pokemon with the same role.

I really don't remember people complaining about the Gym quests. The complaints were more about Ash always losing game related region leagues, but not the Gym quests themselves. That certainly never felt like a problem to me. He was battling witth new Pokemon, aside from Pikachu of course, battling against new characters in new regions with their own new Pokemon. That's more than enough to make each Gym quest feel distinct. It's not like you've seen one Gym quest you've seen them all.

Considering how many other people speculated which starter Ash would get with every generation, I don't think that many people were bothered by that either. I wouldn't say that most of them were redundant either. Even with his abandoned Fire starters, they were all handled significantly different from each other. You could say that Tepig felt redundant coming right after Chimchar, but their abandonment issues were still at least different enough to where Tepig wasn't Chimchar 2.0. A good chuck of Ash's bird Pokemon were pretty bland though. Aside from Talonflame and maybe Staraptor, they typically weren't too memorable. I think a case for Swellow could be made since it had some good battles and won more often than Staraptor did, but Staraptor had a much better moveset. Unfezant was an unnecessary capture though.

Really DP should of been Ash's final saga, but if not, XY would have been a good place to end it too. JN really only exists to give Ash a "final" type season, but if you had Ash battle champions at the end of a previous series instead, it'd be the same deal. Hell remove Ash from JN and Go could have carried the series himself as a new lead, it's what Go felt like a testing ground for anyway. Arguably better since we'd see him use old pokemon and not just the random JN captures. And Alola would have been written very similar since all the SM characters would still be there, just with a new lead instead.

I still highly doubt that Journeys was always going to be Ash's sendoff season. Even with his goal to battle Leon again in mind, the pacing and strucutre of Journeys just does not give off that impression to me, especially during its first year. The World Championship was a joke. He was battling against random nobodies both on and off screen for the first half of the tournament. They seemed hesistant on bringing back older characters despite how much that happend in the later half of the series. It wasn't treated like a huge new step in Ash's journey. It was a way to give him quick battles while he and Goh travel around the world. That only changed once he got to the Ultra Class since he battled against characters from the games and his matches were the main focus instead of being done off screen or the set up for the episode's main plot. If that was how the World Championship was handled from the start, I probably would have been more into it, but it was too little, too late to make the storyline that good for me, even with how it eventually turned out.

It wasn't a last minute decision most likely. The production for Horizons wouldn't have happened overnight, but making Journeys Ash's sendoff series just feels like a decision made midway through the series at the earliest. I don't think Goh could have worked as the main lead of Journeys either. I always thought that fans exaggerated how much focus he got over Ash. The dynamic between Ash and Goh was a big element of Journeys and Ash had a big impact on Goh. I don't think you could easily remove Ash and have Goh be the same kind of character. It probably wouldn't have helped with his reception among fans either.

I still really disagree that SM would be the same without Ash. His personality wasn't that widly different to where you could easily change him with a new lead. I don't think that the dynamic with the SM cast or Professor Kukui would be the exact same with a new lead either.