MGM Cartoons version differences discussion

[Einhänder]

They forgot to black out the byline by mistake

Anyways, I would like to know the difference meaning of these two versions of the 1954-1958 MGM Cartoons logo
View attachment 141611View attachment 141631

I mean why were two variants, of different colors and shade, made? Couldn't they stick on a single version? The latter one can mostly be seen on reissues.

Note that the second one has a registered trademark symbol, while the first one didn't. The one without the registered trademark symbol appeared mostly on Tom And Jerry cartoons from 1953-1954.

So it's safe to say that the first one might have been a prototype logo that was used for a short time before they updated it.

Btw, where did the screenshot for the first one come from?

 

[Daffyrocks]

So I say that the first one was used from 1954-1955 cartoons which were never reissued at all, while the later one would be used later, from 1956-ish, until the closedown of the MGM Cartoons Studio. So the later one was mostly used on Cinemascope-released toons, and that’s why we only see the Academy ratio version on reissues only, as they were released on the time they made widescreen cartoons. And the print of “Deputy Droopy” which we see today may be a reissue as well which only changes the logo and end titles, as it uses the “brighter” baby blue variant unlike all the other cartoons from that time.

And the first screenshot of the 1954-1955 MGM logo comes from the reissue of “Springtime for Thomas” (1946)

 

[Cool_Cat]

I'm 100% sure on the Turner version of Doggone Tired the MGM card was taken from another cartoon. I think that's actually one of those non Technicolor prints.

 

[NewBogus :)]

Note that the second one has a registered trademark symbol, while the first one didn't. The one without the registered trademark symbol appeared mostly on Tom And Jerry cartoons from 1953-1954.

So it's safe to say that the first one might have been a prototype logo that was used for a short time before they updated it.

Btw, where did the screenshot for the first one come from?

So your theory proves that every short between "That's My Pup" and "Little School Mouse" have their original title cards intact (of course every short which has 1953-54 MGM Blue logo).

BTW: @Cool_Cat: It looks for me, that Doggone Tired MGM card was sourced probably from "The Cat that Hated People" reissue print.

 

[Cool_Cat]

I also think the same happened to Cock-a-Doodle Dog, except they put a fake ending too.

That version looks complete crap compared to the 1989 VHS version.

 

[Charly9631]

View attachment 141401

This one comes from "The Little Orphan" from the same tape, also dubbed. I've searched up and down and I don't think I've ever seen "Little Orphan" with this 1960s title card. Any ideas?

Actually, I have seen this print hundreds of times when I was a kid.
This print from The Little Organs was actually broadcasted on CN Asia, and it was reanimated by Chuck Jones.

The difference in this print is that he replaced the knife with the fork and keep Tom's hat instead of removing it.

Left : Original
Right : Chuck Jones

 

[Cool_Cat]

Really CN Asia aired the older prints? I hope they still do.

I have 3 different prints of the Chuck Jones The Little Orphan. One is the VHS print, one is the Italian and the other is an Italian remux still currently aired on Italia 1.

 

[Daffyrocks]

So your theory proves that every short between "That's My Pup" and "Little School Mouse" have their original title cards intact (of course every short which has 1953-54 MGM Blue logo).

I really don't think @Einhänder meant that. I think by "mostly on Tom And Jerry cartoons from 1953-1954" he meant both reissues and original prints, like prints we see today. I sure he actually meant "cartoons from 1953-1955"

 

[Einhänder]

I really don't think @Einhänder meant that. I think by "mostly on Tom And Jerry cartoons from 1953-1954" he meant both reissues and original prints, like prints we see today. I sure he actually meant "cartoons from 1953-1955"

I actually meant 1953-1954, because cartoons like Pecos Pest and Designs On Jerry, while released in 1955, actually have a copyright date of MCMLIII or 1953.

This weekend, just for the heck of it, i decided to order every Hanna-Barbera Tom And Jerry cartoon by MPAA certificate number by watching the first few seconds of all 114 cartoons. This is the order.
Puss Gets the Boot
The Midnight Snack
Fraidy Cat
The Night Before Christmas
Dog Trouble
Puss n' Toots
The Bowling Alley Cat
Fine Feathered Friend
Sufferin' Cats
The Lonesome Mouse
Baby Puss
The Yankee Doodle Mouse
The Zoot Cat
The Million Dollar Cat
The Bodyguard
Puttin' on the Dog
Mouse Trouble
The Mouse Who Came To Dinner
Tee For Two
Flirty Birdy
Springtime for Thomas
Mouse in Manhattan
Quiet Please!
The Milky Waif
Trap Happy
Solid Serenade
Part Time Pal
Cat Fishin'
Dr. Jekyll And Mr. Mouse
The Cat Concerto
Salt Water Tabby
A Mouse In The House
The Invisible Mouse
Kitty Folied
The Truce Hurts
Old Rockin Chair Tom
Professor Tom
Mouse Cleaning
Polka-Dot Puss
Hatch Up Your Troubles
Heavenly Puss
The Little Orphan
The Cat And The Mermouse
Love That Pup
Jerry's Diary
Tennis Chumps


Jerry And The Lion
Saturday Evening Puss
Texas Tom
Little Quacker
Safety Second
The Framed Cat
Cue Ball Cat
Casanova Cat
In The Hollywood Bowl
Jerry And The Goldfish
Jerry's Cousin
Sleepy-Time Tom
His Mouse Friday
Cat Napping
Nit-Witty Kitty
Slicked-up Pup
The Flying Cat
The Duck Doctor
Smitten Kitten
Triplet Trouble
Little Runaway
Fit to Be Tied
Push-Button Kitty
The Two Mouseketeers
The Dog House
Cruise Cat
The Missing Mouse
Jerry And Jumbo
Just Ducky
That's My Pup!
Two Little Indians
Life With Tom
Posse Cat
Hic-cup Pup
Little School Mouse
Johann Mouse
Puppy Tale
Baby Butch
Mice Follies
Neapolitan Mouse
Downhearted Duckling
Pup on a Picnic
Mouse For Sale
Pecos Pest
Designs On Jerry
Touché, Pussy Cat!
Pet Peeve
Smarty Cat
Southbound Duckling
Tom and Chérie
That's My Mommy
The Flying Sorceress
The Egg And Jerry
Busy Buddies
Muscle Beach Tom
Down Beat Bear
Blue Cat Blues
Barbeque Brawl
Tops With Pops
Feedin' The Kiddie
Timid Tabby
Happy Go Ducky
Mucho Mouse
Tom's Photo Finish
Royal Cat Nap
The Vanishing Duck
Robin Hoodwinked
Tot Watchers

 

[Charly9631]

@Cool_Cat Sadly, AFAIK CN Asia no longer broadcasts those Tom and Jerry shorts anymore. Instead, they broadcast the 2014 Warner Bros. version.
CN Asia did aired some older prints, and I know 3 shorts that were actually re-animated by Chuck Jones broadcasted there.
Oddly enough, The Little Orphan was the only shorts among the 3 being NTSC, while the other 2 (Dog Trouble, Saturday Evening Puss) being PAL version.
And CN Asia decided to broadcast the Turner version of The Invisible Mouse, instead (PAL), though there was actually the print with 1960s title card for that short.

 

[Daffyrocks]

I actually meant 1953-1954, because cartoons like Pecos Pest and Designs On Jerry, while released in 1955, actually have a copyright date of MCMLIII or 1953.

This weekend, just for the heck of it, i decided to order every Hanna-Barbera Tom And Jerry cartoon by MPAA certificate number by watching the first few seconds of all 114 cartoons. This is the order.
Puss Gets the Boot
The Midnight Snack
Fraidy Cat
The Night Before Christmas
Dog Trouble
Puss n' Toots
The Bowling Alley Cat
Fine Feathered Friend
Sufferin' Cats
The Lonesome Mouse
Baby Puss
The Yankee Doodle Mouse
The Zoot Cat
The Million Dollar Cat
The Bodyguard
Puttin' on the Dog
Mouse Trouble
The Mouse Who Came To Dinner
Tee For Two
Flirty Birdy
Springtime for Thomas
Mouse in Manhattan
Quiet Please!
The Milky Waif
Trap Happy
Solid Serenade
Part Time Pal
Cat Fishin'
Dr. Jekyll And Mr. Mouse
The Cat Concerto
Salt Water Tabby
A Mouse In The House
The Invisible Mouse
Kitty Folied
The Truce Hurts
Old Rockin Chair Tom
Professor Tom
Mouse Cleaning
Polka-Dot Puss
Hatch Up Your Troubles
Heavenly Puss
The Little Orphan
The Cat And The Mermouse
Love That Pup
Jerry's Diary
Tennis Chumps


Jerry And The Lion
Saturday Evening Puss
Texas Tom
Little Quacker
Safety Second
The Framed Cat
Cue Ball Cat
Casanova Cat
In The Hollywood Bowl
Jerry And The Goldfish
Jerry's Cousin
Sleepy-Time Tom
His Mouse Friday
Cat Napping
Nit-Witty Kitty
Slicked-up Pup
The Flying Cat
The Duck Doctor
Smitten Kitten
Triplet Trouble
Little Runaway
Fit to Be Tied
Push-Button Kitty
The Two Mouseketeers
The Dog House
Cruise Cat
The Missing Mouse
Jerry And Jumbo
Just Ducky
That's My Pup!
Two Little Indians
Life With Tom
Posse Cat
Hic-cup Pup
Little School Mouse
Johann Mouse
Puppy Tale
Baby Butch
Mice Follies
Neapolitan Mouse
Downhearted Duckling
Pup on a Picnic
Mouse For Sale
Pecos Pest
Designs On Jerry
Touché, Pussy Cat!
Pet Peeve
Smarty Cat
Southbound Duckling
Tom and Chérie
That's My Mommy
The Flying Sorceress
The Egg And Jerry
Busy Buddies
Muscle Beach Tom
Down Beat Bear
Blue Cat Blues
Barbeque Brawl
Tops With Pops
Feedin' The Kiddie
Timid Tabby
Happy Go Ducky
Mucho Mouse
Tom's Photo Finish
Royal Cat Nap
The Vanishing Duck
Robin Hoodwinked
Tot Watchers

I noticed once on Wikipedia someone changed the order of the Tom and Jerry shorts, and I think it was this exact same one if I am not wrong.

So you're saying now that the MPAA number gives the correct order of the shorts? And the 1954-1955 blue MGM logo was used in tandem with the 1952-1954 red one??

 

[Einhänder]

I noticed once on Wikipedia someone changed the order of the Tom and Jerry shorts, and I think it was this exact same one if I am not wrong.

So you're saying now that the MPAA number gives the correct order of the shorts? And the 1954-1955 blue MGM logo was used in tandem with the 1952-1954 red one??

1. While the order may not be totally accurate, it makes more sense than the release order in some places.
2. I believe so. This forum thread: http://www.intanibase.com/oldforum/index.php?topic=1534.0 has some posts explaining that.

 

[NewBogus :)]

1. While the order may not be totally accurate, it makes more sense than the release order in some places.
2. I believe so. This forum thread: http://www.intanibase.com/oldforum/index.php?topic=1534.0 has some posts explaining that.

Quoting @Einhänder second answer from the second forum:
"...Those have the original titles. Due to the popularity of widescreen, the studios started vertically tightening-in the credits of their Academy-ratio cartoons circa 1953 to allow theaters to crop off the top and bottom of the picture for widescreen without also cropping off information in the titles. Warner Bros. did it, Paramount did it, and so did MGM. The red MGM lion logo could not be cropped for widescreen, so they came up with the blue logo which could be safely cropped. Note that the blue MGM logo in the cartoons you listed is the earlier version without the "®" (registered trademark) symbol next to the logo, the same version used in Neapolitan Mouse. Also note that the cartoons you listed have the Western Electric Sound System trademark in the credits, not the Perspecta Sound credit.

So now you're wondering, why the heck did, say, The Farm of Tomorrow and Mice Follies end up being released in 1954 with the red logo when the blue logo had come out the year prior? Well, keep in mind that the cartoon studio didn't make one cartoon, let it be released, then make another one; no, they had multiple projects going at one time. The amount of time it took before a cartoon was finished could vary, of course. Then there was the backlog... cartoons could sit on the shelf for a while before being released, and I imagine it's possible that some cartoons spent more time on the shelf than others. All this would explain why the latest-released cartoon with the red logo was released after several cartoons with the blue logo were released..."

Plus, I remember that I saw few months ago or a year ago a reissue print of "Johann Mouse", 1952 with Academy Award Winner 1952 tag (just like used in "The Cat Concerto" and "Quiet, Please!").

 

[Daffyrocks]

Ok, so then why MGM shorts like "Touche, Pussy Cat" and "Southbound Duckling" have the "®" blue logo (I am talking about the Academy ratio versions), while "Pup on a Picnic" and "Mouse for Sale", released in-between them, use the early version? And those were used at a time when the red MGM logo was fully erased from existence.

 

[Einhänder]

Ok, so then why MGM shorts like "Touche, Pussy Cat" and "Southbound Duckling" have the "®" blue logo (I am talking about the Academy ratio versions), while "Pup on a Picnic" and "Mouse for Sale", released in-between them, use the early version? And those were used at a time when the red MGM logo was fully erased from existence.

"Mouse for Sale" and "Pup on a Picnic" were 1953 productions that sat on the backlog until they were released in 1955. By using my list above, it would seem that "Touché, Pussy Cat!" is the first T&J to have the symbol.

 

[Daffyrocks]

Until now I never realised that "Smarty Cat" also used the "®" logo! Wtf!

Anyways, then I guess the 1953-1954 cartoons with the blue MGM logo were really never reissued. Oh well, I sensed that before anyways, since the style of the character designs and backgrounds themselves did match pretty well with the way the old blue logo was drawn.

So now I guess everything is very clear finally about the two blue MGM logos, since this is what I wanted to know. Recently I even thought that the current prints we see today of "Deputy Droopy", "Smarty Cat", "Touche, Pussy Cat" (4:3 version), "Pet Peeve" (4:3 version) and "Southbound Duckling" (4:3 version) are reissues which just replaced the MGM logo. And I thought that the Laserdisc of Tom and Jerry shorts used later 1957-ish reissue prints of the three Cinemascope cartoons mentioned. But that doesn't seem to be the case after all. Oh well.

But however, "Pup on a Picnic" is the only T&J short really made in widescreen, which still uses the early MGM blue logo. How can you explain that?

 

[Einhänder]

Could you explain on what you mean by "Pup on a Picnic" being the only T&J really made in widescreen?

 

[Daffyrocks]

Could you explain on what you mean by "Pup on a Picnic" being the only T&J really made in widescreen?

I meant that it is the only one made in widescreen which uses the early version of the MGM blue logo.

 

[Einhänder]

Only the 4:3 versions of Pup on a Picnic have the original logo. The widescreen version has the same logo as all the other widescreen T&J's.

 

[Daffyrocks]

Only the 4:3 versions of Pup on a Picnic have the original logo. The widescreen version has the same logo as all the other widescreen T&J's.

So it was never reissued.