Before Starcrossed....

[Bones Justice]

- Maybe Wonder Woman?

Black Manta poisoned her with a dart...I'd thought her skin would be too tough to pierce with something as simple as a dart (much like Superman's skin).

If it that easy to penetrate her skin, who's to say that should coulda been hit with some kind of mind control serum.

I'm not disagreeing with you but...does mind-control count as betrayal? While the general public probably doesn't know that Superman was mind-controlled in Legacy, the viewing audience did. So I've never really considered Superman as a traitor in that case.

Actually, kind people can become the most cruelest and vicious of villians.

I don't disagree with you but there are plenty of good guys that never go bad in the first place. I suppose Flash could turn evil somehow but that would be the hardest sell to me of any of the original seven.

I don't even think that any of them would have to become evil to betray the team, though. I think it more likely that one would betray the team thinking they were doing the greater good (ie, Hawkgirl's case). Secondary to that, I'd guess that coercion of some sort would be the next likely reason that one of them would betray the League. I guess I really can't imagine any of them just plain becoming evil of their own free will; but of all of them, again, Flash would be least likely, in my opinion.

 

[Wolf Boy2]

If I recall correctly, the producers did toy with the idea of splitting the League between Batman's team and Superman's team, but scrapped the idea because it would've made one or the other look like a jerk. I think they said that in the video commentary.

 

[RuneKnight3]

I'm going to have to ask for clarification of that point before I say something because it sounds like humans are more moral and compassionate than aliens, or the aliens with which we have come in contact. As far as potential likelihood and logic are concerned, I'd imagine the possibility of aliens being more mentally endowed and/or advanced is more intuitive.

I also have trouble with The Dark Knight Returns as an example in general, and also with this topic. Dark Knight Returns is crack for hardcore Batman fans, and I think that analogy holds for my particular view because it may be awesome, but I don't see it in a positive light. Batman was anti-establishment, and telling people who tried to tell him what to do to step off, and that rules, but I think the story also showed how technically unstable he is.

I wasn't trying to assert that those things which are human or alien are 'better', rather I was trying to present the argument that in terms of a real sense of the alien DC or at least it's animated presentations tend to fall flat. For instance, Hawkwoman has this electrified mace that is representative of her cultural ethics. The Thanagarians are, by implication, an uncompromising and ruthless race as we see when they invade earth. However, we have the character of Hawkwoman and her struggle back and forth to deal with the sheer magnitude of the decision to betray her friends or not, but it doesn't seem to me like a Thanagarian dichotomy; it seems like a human one plastered on so we can relate to the character. If she's nominally okay with bludgeoning and conccussing her way through people she deems ammoral or unethical, or the threat of that violence even if she's only using the weapon defensively, why should she care about human ethos when her honor system is not our honor system? The same sort of things can be said of Diana whom, while obstensibly human, is so very alternate in her world view due to isolation that she is alien as was pointed out. The only person I compromise on this with is Manhunter because, as an empath and telepath, he truly can relate to any species but that's the exception rather than the rule.

As to Batman, I also wasn't trying to make arguments for how awesome DKR is. Rather, I was trying to use the very different personal perceptions at play between characters to show this 'otherness' that should appear and often doesn't. There is no way, at any time, even in extreme conditions such as DKR2, that Superman and Batman will ever see truly eye to eye. They just can't.

 

[StormBlue]

I wasn't trying to assert that those things which are human or alien are 'better', rather I was trying to present the argument that in terms of a real sense of the alien DC or at least it's animated presentations tend to fall flat. For instance, Hawkwoman has this electrified mace that is representative of her cultural ethics. The Thanagarians are, by implication, an uncompromising and ruthless race as we see when they invade earth. However, we have the character of Hawkwoman and her struggle back and forth to deal with the sheer magnitude of the decision to betray her friends or not, but it doesn't seem to me like a Thanagarian dichotomy; it seems like a human one plastered on so we can relate to the character. If she's nominally okay with bludgeoning and conccussing her way through people she deems ammoral or unethical, or the threat of that violence even if she's only using the weapon defensively, why should she care about human ethos when her honor system is not our honor system? The same sort of things can be said of Diana whom, while obstensibly human, is so very alternate in her world view due to isolation that she is alien as was pointed out. The only person I compromise on this with is Manhunter because, as an empath and telepath, he truly can relate to any species but that's the exception rather than the rule.

Your argument creates an absolute. There's no way these beings who come from alien heritage can truly adopt human morals and honor, notwithstanding the Martian Manhunter exception.

I would disagree. The team originally banded together to fight off planetary threats and saw the benefit in their power as a team versus their individual pursuits. I would argue that JL/U lends the viewer the opportunity to see these individuals acclimate themselves to standards different from their own. Diana is a great example of how her entire lifestyle was anti-man. We even had a moment where she sacraficed upholding a sacred rule of Themyscira to save the Amazons (Paradise Lost). Diana doesn't have to give up on her Amazonian upbringing but can still learn new and exciting things, just like kids heading off to college.

As to Batman, I also wasn't trying to make arguments for how awesome DKR is. Rather, I was trying to use the very different personal perceptions at play between characters to show this 'otherness' that should appear and often doesn't. There is no way, at any time, even in extreme conditions such as DKR2, that Superman and Batman will ever see truly eye to eye. They just can't.

Does truly seeing eye-to-eye mean they have to agree on everything? That one must subscribe to the other's ideology? If so, then yes this is unrealistic. Of the primary 7, there's not one person whose methods would exactly match that of another. However, I offer that Batman and Superman's ideologies complement each other. There's something about Batman's style of dark justice that is still right and appropriate, just as Superman's transparency in fighting the good fight. I'm always drawn back to when Bruce is at Clark's "burial plot" in Hereafter. It speaks volumes about their friendship (and how Bruce perceives it) and why both are needed in an imperfect world.

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Sorry to jump in the middle of this discussion, but it's incredibly intriguing!