jl/jlu = hawkgirl/shayera overkill show

[akomoron]

anyone else feel like jl/jlu became the hawkgirl/shayera overkill show? i read interviews of the team behind both shows n they definitely admit to really liking the character (one even says he has a crush on her). its too bad because too much emphasis on hawkgirl/shayera i think made the shows suffer. it shortchanged characters that deserved more of the limelight or more development.

case in pt. i just rewatched secret society. there was just too much hawkgirl. she had too many lines, they kept forcefeeding viewers the hg/gl "romance". her action sequences were the most prolonged and well-staged. it seems like so much effort was put on how to make her fight scenes cool (hg vs. sinestro, killer frost, grodd) while the other characters fights seemed like an afterthought to the makers of jl/jlu. i mean did hawkgirl really have to chase killer frost on foot around the western practice grounds only to be knocked out by gas from the carboard girl? flash jon jonz or ww couldve been shown fighting more instead of that. it was a complete waste of airtime!

i feel like jon jonz n wonder woman are the most underdeveloped characters n it shows because it seems like everyone hates them on this board. yet they have these great, virtually unexplored backstories while someone with less pedigree/iconographic importance in the dc universe hogs jl/jlu. yes she disappeared after stracrossed but it was the only avenue for the character. but when she eventually returned it was shayera in virtually every episode. it really shortchanged the development of newer characters like green arrow, vixen, black canary, red tornado, fire, steel, shining knight, atom smasher, etc.....

even in destroyer she had to get a dramatic fight sequence since her wing was pierced, but there was no blood (duh). flash n gl were paired since they play off it each other so well. jon jonzz returned. wonderwoman carried a ship through another ship n hugged jon. bats helped superman fight darkseid.
but shayera still got way too much airtime. n when everyone was running on the steps at the end, she was the last member in the lineup before the big 3 when it clearly should have been gl or flash since they're more iconic. its too bad the producers were shayera-crazy. less of her would have definitely improved jl, but most especially jlu.

 

[BCVM22]

The creative staff had already spent several years on Batman and Superman, and between those characters, the Flash and Wonder Woman, they can only change the characters so much. With Shayera, and to a lesser extent, John Stewart, they had nearly-empty slates to work with and as such were able to create new incarnations of the characters exclusive to the animated continuity. I, for one, thought it worked very well, especially if you look at the growth of those two particular characters from the start of JL to the end of JLU.

As for the shortchanging of other, newer characters in exchange for more Shayera screen time, I disagree. Green Arrow and Black Canary got plenty of time to themselves (heh) and most of Vixen's development as a character was tied into Shayera's as well. In addition to those, they managed to give characters like Shining Knight and Vigilante distinctive and very well done personalities; I'm not going to penalize them because they couldn't give every hero in the lexicon their own episode.

Finally, protesting that the running order at the end of Destroyer should have been different is nitpicking at best.

 

[Bat_Girl]

It may seem like she is in it the most because there were a few episodes close together that focused on her alot.
But if you counted how many appearances each member of the JL made in the series it would be pretty much equal.

 

[Aldrius]

She got as much focus as Flash or Green Lantern I'd say...

She might have been at the fore-front in a few more episodes than necessary... but she's hardly in the four-part Cadmus finale, she's barely in Destroyer despite what you may say. (She has one or two lines.)

I'd say you were looking at the show with sunglasses.

 

[akomoron]

The creative staff had already spent several years on Batman and Superman, and between those characters, the Flash and Wonder Woman, they can only change the characters so much. With Shayera, and to a lesser extent, John Stewart, they had nearly-empty slates to work with and as such were able to create new incarnations of the characters exclusive to the animated continuity. I, for one, thought it worked very well, especially if you look at the growth of those two particular characters from the start of JL to the end of JLU.

how exactly were flash n wonderwoman developed prior to jl/jlu? surely u cant be refering to their live TV shows? i'll give u bats n supes since they had their own shows. flash was the comic relief with the heart of gold n they developed him adequately/well. but ww n jon jonz were virtually given the shaft for hawkgirl n j.stewart, one of the lamest green lanterns.

quote/As for the shortchanging of other, newer characters in exchange for more Shayera screen time, I disagree. Green Arrow and Black Canary got plenty of time to themselves (heh) and most of Vixen's development as a character was tied into Shayera's as well. In addition to those, they managed to give characters like Shining Knight and Vigilante distinctive and very well done personalities; I'm not going to penalize them because they couldn't give every hero in the lexicon their own episode. quote/

they barely scratched the surface with atom smasher, shining knight n vigilante. they're camaraderie could've been developed more. same with steel. he was just there to fly/talk to supergirl or get his behind kicked by dr polaris n galatea Ex. in epilogue: couldnt they have used steel or shining knight up against the royal flush gang? it could've been the mythical (s.knight) vs. japanese kitana blade weilding creation of ace. or the mechanical/technological (steel) vs. japanese. that way steel would've at least redeemed himself from the bruising he got from galatea. either way it would've been a more interesting juxtaposition for epilogue to have either steel or s.knight there instead of battlecry-screaming shayera as usual.

red tornado is such a cool character but he was only utilized to neutralize luthor/flash. ivo made him n they didnt even mention that or work it into an episodes plot. as for ga n bc now there was the romance that shouldve been nurtured by the writers. instead after 1 ep of flirtation they're literally kissing in the tree. it was very rushed. character-wise the only deep insight from ga came from cadmus arc. bc's mentor relationship with wildcat posed too many interesting questions for the characters n part of the big cadmus arc. but it was dropped after wildcat was sent to therapy w jon. as for vixen u proved my pt. mari is such a cool character that she deserved her own long-running arc instead of being the proverbial 3rd wheel to cha n john. what were the writers thinking making someone that powerful play second-fiddle to someone way below her?

Finally, protesting that the running order at the end of Destroyer should have been different is nitpicking at best.

wasnt the whole pt of the running order/curtain call to show the characters grouped together from the same jlu groups/generations/years? then the final 7 should've been shown in order of importance. it really looked ridiculous to have sha fly right before the big 3. shes not even in the same league as flash, yet alone those 3. it just disrupted the logical order for me.

She got as much focus as Flash or Green Lantern I'd say...

She might have been at the fore-front in a few more episodes than necessary... but she's hardly in the four-part Cadmus finale, she's barely in Destroyer despite what you may say. (She has one or two lines.)

I'd say you were looking at the show with sunglasses.

she made up for it in the cadmus finale. she had too many attack scenes with diversion brainiac and lexiac. she yapped abt lexiac being nanotech which was out of character. her jlord counterpart had to bring up the thanagarian invasion. she n j.stewart had to acknowledge their relationship which is shoved down our collective throats. n why in the world was she the one to pull wally from the speed force realm? it shouldve been jon jonz since he has psychic powers. its just further proof of how the writers show blatant favoritism to sha, which really shortchanged too many characters.

 

[The Guitar Slayer]

Just a moderator poke and reminder that character bashing is not OK. You may not like a character that much, but there is no need to start threads around it and to say how much he/she sucks.


On the topic: No, there was not too much Hawkgirl in JLU. She reasonably got more time than some being as a) she's complex; she was a spy and then a traitor to her own people and then had to work her way back into the good graces of the JLU; b) she has a big fate -- Mom to Warhawk, part of the JLU of the future; c) she's never been seen in the DCAU before. Supes, Bats, and Flash have been seen before, and we've known of the Green Lanterns. WW is well-known by herself, even outside the DCAU. I know there was some Timm-designed WW out and about on merchandise long before JLU.

The only character, I think, that got short-changed in all of JLU was Flash, and I feel that was more because there was a lot of fan service going on initially, showing off all the new characters, and not Shayera. Many of these characters have a sense of humour (such as Booster Gold), so having Flash there would have been superfluous. Flash did get his due in Flash and Substance and The Great Brain Robbery, but still, I would have liked to see more of him.

I recall a long period there when Shayera was somewhat in exile with Dr. Fate, and we saw nothing of her. Shayera was also one of the better-written characters and was fairly consistent, unlike WW, who had her ups and downs. I think I did enjoy the Shayera eps more.

 

[S.C.B]

her jlord counterpart had to bring up the thanagarian invasion.

What else was she supposed to taunt Shayera with?

she n j.stewart had to acknowledge their relationship which is shoved down our collective throats.

They exchanged three lines in the entire episode. If you think that's 'shoved down our collective throats', I shudder to think what you thought of 'Starcrossed'. Lord, they had full blown conversations.

And besides, the guys behind the scene thought that 'Divided We Fall' was their swansong for JLU, so they had to get something in there about John and Shayera; them joking around about the events from 'Starcrossed' shows that they're over it to some degree.

n why in the world was she the one to pull wally from the speed force realm? it shouldve been jon jonz since he has psychic powers.

Shayera makes more sense than J'onn from a storytelling point of view. Flash is pretty much the only Leaguer who unconditionally stuck with Shayera and supported her when she came back into the League (the goodbye hug in 'Starcrossed', trying to patch things up between Shayera and Diana in 'The Balance').

You have a point about her sometimes being too much at the forefront (in JL more than JLU, IMO), but I think you're letting your hatred of the character blur the facts.

The only character, I think, that got short-changed in all of JLU was Flash, and I feel that was more because there was a lot of fan service going on initially, showing off all the new characters, and not Shayera. Many of these characters have a sense of humour (such as Booster Gold), so having Flash there would have been superfluous. Flash did get his due in Flash and Substance and The Great Brain Robbery, but still, I would have liked to see more of him.

Full agreement. Something a little more serious like 'A Better World' wouldn't have gone amiss.

 

[SuperBat]

n when everyone was running on the steps at the end, she was the last member in the lineup before the big 3 when it clearly should have been gl or flash since they're more iconic. its too bad the producers were shayera-crazy. less of her would have definitely improved jl, but most especially jlu.

She's got wings that make her look like a big angel. I think it was more of a majesty shot.

It may seem like she is in it the most because there were a few episodes close together that focused on her alot.
But if you counted how many appearances each member of the JL made in the series it would be pretty much equal.

Aside from Batman, their speaking parts amount to:

J’onn J’onzz-- 63 episodes
John Stewart-- 62 episodes
Superman-- 58 episodes
The Flash-- 55 episodes
Shayera Hol-- 55 episodes
Wonder Woman-- 53 episodes

Could be off by a number or two, but it's mostly accurate.

No, I don't think Shayera got too much time, at least in retrospect. I did think so when I first watched JL, but "Starcrossed" changed my mind, and JLU was much better for her, I think. Admittedly, I'm not a big fan of the John/Shayera relationship, but I do like the way it affected the characters.

 

[pixellj]

I got into the whole DCAU thing through liking BTAS, and thought I'd pick up the DVDs. I bought JLU 1 reluctantly, it was on sale, but I figured I wouldn't like it, figuring it would be 'too flashy' for me.

I watched up until "Wake the Dead" and I was hooked. I had no idea what was going due to continuity, but my curiosity was piqued, and I picked up JL 1 and 2.

I started those thinking Hawkgirl was pretty weak (I'm not fond of the name/schtick of what little I know of the character). She annoyed me at first, always yelling and grunting, and not much else.

I consumed these DVDs within days, they were that good. and by "Starcrossed" HG/Shayera became far and away my favourite character. I can't wait for JLU 2 to come out to see what happens, since I've not seen anything of it.

Being quite new to this whole DCAU as a whole, and finding out that it is cancelled just as I got to know her really bums me out. So no, I'm not tired of her, I want more of her.

 

[Temple Fugate]

When JL season 2 was airing, there were a lot of complaints among fans that Batman had too much focus. He would steal scenes or appear in episodes where he should have been of little or no help, but somehow because he's Batman he was able to do big things and help the League.

When we hit the trilogy of "Wild Cards," "Comfort & Joy" and "Starcrossed," Hawkgirl/John Stewart mania exploded and most everyone forgot about Batman.

In the first half of the first season of JLU, the focus then shifted to the Big Four, Supes, Bats, WW and GL because they had focus episodes that were of highly-debated quality and were preventing the new characters from getting the spotlight. Fortunately this subsided quickly. Beyond this point I think there was no longer any major disputes among fans about one or several characters getting too much focus. Heck, some of us couldn't get enough Arrow or Question.

My point is, the show gravitates toward certain characters sometimes when the plot or character arc calls for it. I saw little focus on Hawkgirl throughout JLU. Far as I can recall, the only HG focus episodes were "Wake the Dead," "The Balance," "Shadow of the Hawk" and "Ancient History." And in one of those she shared double-billing with WW.

Your point about WW and J'onn not getting much focus has some justification. They are the two hardest characters in the Big Seven to write dramatically. My favorite WW story is still "Paradise Lost." All the other episodes didn't seem to cause much inner conflict for Diana's character.

The fight at the end of Cadmus is moot, because HG and John had equal focus time as Flash and Supes.

I think the root of your problem is that you were overloaded on the events leading up to and including "Starcrossed," and your dislike of the character compounded with all of her other appearances, no matter how minor or infrequent they were.

 

[Aldrius]

Far as I can recall, the only HG focus episodes were "Wake the Dead," "The Balance," "Shadow of the Hawk" and "Ancient History." And in one of those she shared double-billing with WW.

Hunter's Moon.

She had a decent role in Epilogue (well... not THAT decent... but still.) and I am Legion. She's a good supporting character, but the way her character works tends to make things about her often. Though it depends on the plot. You really can't just stick her into an episode all that often.

 

[BlackoutCreature]

Am I the only one who remembers JL season one where she really had no story whatsoever? Outside of a few conversations with John Stewart in "Legends" and "Metamorphises" (which were done more for John's benefit then hers) she was little more then wallpaper brought in to smash something when they needed it.

You might be able to make the argument that she was overused in season two, but it would still be a dubious argument in my opinion. If they did go overboard on her, it was only to make up for her underwhelming role in season one, and to build her up for her big fall in "Starcrossed".

As for JLU, i barely remember her in the show. She had pivotal roles in a few episodes, but she hardly dominated the series. I actually find that kinda a shame. After everything that happened to her, I felt she could've offered the series much more interesting plots then say Supergirl or Black Canary or Atom-Smasher. No disrespect to any of them, I loved them all, I just thought after everything that happened to Shayera, she would've had much more interesting stories to tell.

Maybe it's just me, but I get the feeling that a lot of this anti-Hawkgirl sentiment that might still be floating around out there dates back to when Justice League first debuted. I think some people are still irritated that she was chosen over Aquaman.

 

[SuperBat]

Maybe it's just me, but I get the feeling that a lot of this anti-Hawkgirl sentiment that might still be floating around out there dates back to when Justice League first debuted. I think some people are still irritated that she was chosen over Aquaman.

Possible. I know that I would've preferred Aquaman at first, but I would've taken Hawkman over Hawkgirl, just because it seemed more natural. No, I'm not sexist, but it seemed similar to taking Batgirl over Batman. She was originally crafted as a partner/sidekick for Hawkman, so I thought it should've been him. But Shayera grew on me over time, as I already stated.

On a side note, I was much more aggravated by Kyle Rayner's absense. (Still am, but I have no problem with John Stewart now. I just wish we could've seen more of the first GL we got to know.)

 

[BigFatHairyDeal]

I still think Hawkgirl was a bit of a dubious choice for the original cast. If they had to do this show again, I'd again lobby for someone else. They did, however, do a good job in writing the character, but that doesn't mean they couldn't have done that with another character altogether.

That said, it wasn't really overkill until season 3 of JLU when they decided to prolong the HG/GL/Vixen saga by adding another character into the fray. Yikes... those were certainly not bad episodes, but again it doesn't mean they couldb't have written other good episodes about completely different stories with different characters. At least they mentioned the dozens of "I hate Hawkgirl" sites around the web. Funniest line of the last season, by far.

 

[Simon Trent]

Anyway, I think that Hawkgirl's appearances on the series were fine. Yeah, some of the characters were neglected but really, we all know that most of them were put in there to entertain people who remember them from the comics. There's no way that they'd be able to give them all dramatic character arcs, but I think the writers did a pretty good job.

Maybe it's just me, but I get the feeling that a lot of this anti-Hawkgirl sentiment that might still be floating around out there dates back to when Justice League first debuted. I think some people are still irritated that she was chosen over Aquaman.

There are people that think that Aquaman is a better hero than Hawkgirl? We are talking about the guy who doesn't realize that the melting of the polar ice caps might be of interest to the Justice League, right? I mean, this is the same idiot who decided that Lovecraftian horrors invading the world is irrelevent compared to his right to act like a jerk, right? That would have been a better hero than Hawkgirl!?

 

[tb4000]

They basically gave Aquaman the Namor treatment. Not exactly a villain, but more of an arrogant anti-hero.

 

[Alph]

I liked Hawkgirls development, but I think it should have gone to a different character. An all new DCAU exclusive character would have been pretty neat. Or they could have turned Volcana into a good guy. Or they could have just used a female DCAU character with more interesting powers and character design.


I also wish they had introduced John Stewert in STAS. I feel his character and backstory is vastly more interesting than Kyle's, but the problem is that he comes out of no where. No one likes the feeling that they are being left out of the loop on something. If only they had had the foresight to use John from the get-go, that would have been much more awesome.

 

[akomoron]

What else was she supposed to taunt Shayera with?



They exchanged three lines in the entire episode. If you think that's 'shoved down our collective throats', I shudder to think what you thought of 'Starcrossed'. Lord, they had full blown conversations.

And besides, the guys behind the scene thought that 'Divided We Fall' was their swansong for JLU, so they had to get something in there about John and Shayera; them joking around about the events from 'Starcrossed' shows that they're over it to some degree.



Shayera makes more sense than J'onn from a storytelling point of view. Flash is pretty much the only Leaguer who unconditionally stuck with Shayera and supported her when she came back into the League (the goodbye hug in 'Starcrossed', trying to patch things up between Shayera and Diana in 'The Balance').

You have a point about her sometimes being too much at the forefront (in JL more than JLU, IMO), but I think you're letting your hatred of the character blur the facts.



Full agreement. Something a little more serious like 'A Better World' wouldn't have gone amiss.

I use shortcuts when i write since i text all the time. onto the post: why bring up thanagarian invasion, gl/hawkgirl relationship, etc in divided we fall when every regular viewer already knows that? its like being hit on the head with the same info again n again. thanagar invaded earth. hg/gl were lovers. we get it already! obviously gl and the team is over the thanagarian inavsion otherwise hg wouldnt be back in the fold again.

sha pulling wally out of the speed force makes no sense from a storytelling pt. of view since she doesnt have those powers. only mm could've done that. all he did was phase through lexiac's wire. i dont think they showed him fight jlord mm. he shouldve pulled flash outta there.

anyway it seems like this mb has many sha-fans so my posts must be sacrieligious..............

 

[Aldrius]

The speed force isn't a psycological realm is it?

How on earth would a telepath be able to any better than an alien with wings? It's more character-driven if it's Shayera.

Sure the league is over it, but is Shayera? And has John forgiven her?

That's what the point to that exchange was.

 

[akomoron]

The speed force isn't a psycological realm is it?

How on earth would a telepath be able to any better than an alien with wings? It's more character-driven if it's Shayera.

Sure the league is over it, but is Shayera? And has John forgiven her?

That's what the point to that exchange was.

if it isnt in some way a psychic realm then how could mm sense him there? mm should've pulled him out since he sensed him there. it would be more character-driven if gl did it not sha.

the exchange was basically:

sha: you enjoyed that a little too much
gl:she broke my heart you know.
sha: likewise

how was that about the league? it was about their romance again. the writers should've moved on from this but they kept beating this dead horse until ancient history, which was the last episode basically until alive/destroyer finale.