"WWE Friday Night SmackDown" 1-22-10 Talkback (Spoilers)

[Hobbes829]

I didn't say it had to be equal; I'm actually not in favor of that. I'm saying that RAW shouldn't have 9 guys on SmackDown. 14-11, 14-10, even 14-9 would be fine with me, but not 14(or more)-5. SmackDown has more than five guys with the "talent" and "star power" to be in the Royal Rumble.

do the math 14+5+5=24. That leaves 6 more spots in the 30 man rumble.

 

[The Penguin]

do the math 14+5+5=24. That leaves 6 more spots in the 30 man rumble.

Where were you? I did that math yesterday. Try reading the thread if you're going to attempt to pick on someone with vague arguments about "talent" and "star power" in match that already features Santino Marella and Carlito. Yesterday, I mentioned the six spots remaining and said I would like to see most of them go to SmackDown and not be saved for surprises or last minute entrants because the number difference should not be that big between the two brands with a similar sized roster. Since I can't imagine that you read it, here is that part of my post again...

So even after the show, SmackDown has just five Superstars officially in the Rumble match: Batista, Chris Jericho, CM Punk, Kane and The Great Khali. This leave off Dolph Ziggler (at least for now) who more or less announced his entry last week. This is compared to 14 for RAW. I hope these last five-six spots aren't being held for surprises. ECW prevents it from being an even split, but SmackDown's numbers should be fairly close to RAW if not equal. Giving all the currently unannounced spots to SmackDown makes it RAW: 14, ECW: 5 and SmackDown: 11.

 

[Hobbes829]

why are you complaining then? The spots haven't been filled and you are acting like it's lopsided despite the fact that it isn't over.

 

[The Penguin]

why are you complaining then? The spots haven't been filled and you are acting like it's lopsided despite the fact that it isn't over.

I wouldn't say I was complaining. I said from the first time I mentioned it that I hope those spots got to SmackDown, but the fact that RAW rolled out nine last week (to add to the five from the week before) and then SmackDown only had five last week does not give me confidence that most of those spots will go the blue crew. There is no reason to wait. It's not a "reveal" to have some SmackDown guys announced for the Rumble two days before. Last year, eight spots were open going into Sunday and there are only six left now.

 

[Wade Kruse]

Women's wrestling doesn't draw because they're never given a real chance to draw. They are given generic characters, never have any real character development, never have any real meaningful feuds. Most of the time, they're just thrown out there and the writing team just throws together something quick to make them "feud". Usually it's just like "heel diva wants the title, and she's uh, kind of a shrew, I guess". The characters are basically "pretty girl who smiles a lot" and "pretty girl who's stuck up". The fans don't care because they're never given a reason to care.

Which is one of the big reasons why the Knockout division is actually working...because they're not treated as afterthoughts by the bookers and writers. Saying women's wrestling can't interest the fans is BS, the Knockouts have proved that it's possible. But as long as the WWE continues to put absolutely zero EFFORT into making it worth watching, no one is going to care.

This whole Mickie/Michelle/Beth thing is the first time in ages where there's been any real effort to give a diva feud an actual storyline with some actual effort and attention behind it. And, at least on Smackdown, it seems to be working. The crowd was actually invested in that segment on friday. We'll see how it carries over to the ppv. Unfortunately, a lot of people don't watch Smackdown. I wish they would put in this kind of effort for the girls on Raw, too. Instead they just threw together a tournament with mostly bad wresters who the fans have never had a reason to care about in the past, and they're expecting the fans to care about them now.

Women's wrestling isn't going to be drawing the way the world title division can, but that doesn't mean it can't be a draw at all. They need good wrestlers, good storylines, good characters, good booking, and the support of the company. But the WWE rarely seems interested in even TRYING. It's not the fault of women's wrestling, the blame falls squarely on the WWE for treating women the way they do for as long as they have.

 

[Hobbes829]

it's a chicken and the egg question. Are they not given opportunities because they don't draw, or do they not draw because they aren't given opportunities. Not everything has to be written for them. A good talent will make the best out of a bad situation. They make themselves standout, even if only subtle ways

Trish has a personality and they gave her a push. Any time something comes out of Mickie's mouth, i cringe.

The knockout division proves that they could get more time, but they will still not draw ANYWHERE near what men do.

I personally don't care if it went away. It's akward even with the best of performers. I like women as valets and managers, not wrestlers.

 

[Wade Kruse]

That's your excuse for every case of bad booking. "If they were good they'd stand out anyway!" Please. If women are booked to look like they mean NOTHING, then it's just not possible. Trish was given storylines, Trish was given stuff to work with. Ditto for Lita. Or Chyna. Or the Knockouts. But a woman is not going to get over if they get no mic time, no real feuds, and absolutely no opportunity to showcase themselves. Neither will a male, for that matter.

And just because the women's division isn't going to draw on the level of say, the main eventers, doesn't mean that they can't draw on the level of ANY male performers. The women's division could easily be a solid midcard attraction if some freaking effort was actually put into it. And you need good midcard attractions, too. The Knockouts prove that a women's division can be successful, that it can get fans to care about it. There was a long stretch of time where they were getting the highest ratings on Impact, that does mean something.

And if you think women's wrestling is always akward even with the best of performers, you are flat out wrong. There are plenty of women in the indies and Japan that can work fluid, excellent matches. Hell, Beth and Katie Lea can, too, when they're actually working with people who don't drag them down.

And you know what? These women love and cherish the business as much as the men do, and deserve an outlet to perform as much as the men do. Saying they should be relegated to ring candy is a slap in the face to the women who bleed for the industry we love. Improving the state of womens wrestling is a far, FAR better cause then getting rid of it entirely.

 

[Condiment King]

That's your excuse for every case of bad booking. "If they were good they'd stand out anyway!" Please. If women are booked to look like they mean NOTHING, then it's just not possible. Trish was given storylines, Trish was given stuff to work with. Ditto for Lita. Or Chyna. Or the Knockouts. But a woman is not going to get over if they get no mic time, no real feuds, and absolutely no opportunity to showcase themselves. Neither will a male, for that matter.

And just because the women's division isn't going to draw on the level of say, the main eventers, doesn't mean that they can't draw on the level of ANY male performers. The women's division could easily be a solid midcard attraction if some freaking effort was actually put into it. And you need good midcard attractions, too. The Knockouts prove that a women's division can be successful, that it can get fans to care about it. There was a long stretch of time where they were getting the highest ratings on Impact, that does mean something.

And if you think women's wrestling is always akward even with the best of performers, you are flat out wrong. There are plenty of women in the indies and Japan that can work fluid, excellent matches. Hell, Beth and Katie Lea can, too, when they're actually working with people who don't drag them down.

And you know what? These women love and cherish the business as much as the men do, and deserve an outlet to perform as much as the men do. Saying they should be relegated to ring candy is a slap in the face to the women who bleed for the industry we love. Improving the state of womens wrestling is a far, FAR better cause then getting rid of it entirely.

I don't know what else to say except that I fully support this post, and the fact that the Knockouts division drew the highest ratings on Impact was not just how hot The Beautiful People are. Whatever your opinion of the 1/4 TNA show, the biggest show perhaps in company history, it says something that in that historic show, not only did Awesome Kong & Hamada and Taylor Wilde & Sarita get a chance to put on a women's tag team match that got time, but it was the second best match on the show. That says something.

Wade hits the nail on the head when he talks about the lack of character development with WWE's women. It's obvious just taking one glance at Melina. Her babyface persona is simply "smiles a lot." She takes it to such an extreme that the viewer can't even believe she'd ever be angry at someone, and her limited acting skills only make this worse. The same can be said for Kelly Kelly. Even Maryse, the only WWE woman with charisma, still spouts off scripted lines that do little in the way of making her stand out as a personality. People just think "French" and "hot."

 

[Hobbes829]

fist off, the fact that women drew the highest rating means nothing. A lot of people within the TV industry can't properly interpret ratings. Often times, it simply comes down to when their segment is.

No, not every bad booking decision can be overcome, but there's not always something there to begin with. However, even with bad gimmicks and so called burials, good talent can overcome. Austin had the stupid ringmaster gimmick. Rock came back after being pushed aside after the failed overpush, and HHH came back after the crap he had to deal with following the curtain call. Foley came back after "Lost in Cleveland"

If i remember, wasn't hogan in the highest rated segment?

I know that women love wrestling but i don't care as it just doesn't interest me. It's awful looking. YOu can call me wrong, but i watched it and it's TERRIBLE. I don't like seeing women beat eachother up.

This also goes back to the men, you guys keep thinking everything has to be done for them. Every post seems to be about the awful character development. Every top guy's story that i've ever read created their own persona and got it over. Then WWE pushed and marketed the heck out of it. Steve Williams created Stone Cold, Dwayne Johnson came up with The Rock, Cena's Cean, etc. Even Trish was Trish.

Do you have any idea how valuable air time is? How do you think they decide who gets how much air time? Even with a 3 min. segment, a true star will make themselves standout. You get more opportunities if you make the most out of every little bit that you're given. If you do well with little, why should they give you more?

Melina is relegated to a smaller role because she can't talk. She's horrible at it. I doubt not scripting her would make her come off any better.

Look at Trish, she got a huge push because she has charisma and a personality.

Valets and managers aren't mere ring candy. They can add a lot if they have talent and can talk. Sunny was great and Miss Elizabeth added so much to the Macho Man.

 

[Wonderwall]

Considering how bad a lot of the women in WWE are at the wrestling it just surprises me that they don't have valets or managers. Not saying they'd be good at that either but it's harder to screw that up than a match.

As for women being a draw. I like the Knockouts and I like that usually they get the highest ratings on impact. But if the rest of impact wasn't booked by a trained ape, I gurantee that they would be one of the lower rated segments.

 

[Wade Kruse]

Stone Cold or The Rock wouldn't have gotten over if they had never gotten any time to showcase those characters in the first place. Or never got any real feuds. A woman in the WWE could come up with something great it wouldn't matter, because she wouldn't be given the opportunity to use it anyway. Maryse has a decent french snob character, but she never really DOES anything. She just comes out, has a quick match, maybe cuts a quick promo...but where's the personal feud, where's the storyline to really showcase her heel character? Nowhere. So the fans don't care. And they will continue to not care. Meanwhile, Michelle and Mickie are getting good heel and face heat because they're actually involved in something. Despite the fued idea being kind of stupid, it's something that allows the crowd to connect with these characters. Sympathy for Mickie, disgust for Michelle. You don't get that emotional connection with how the women are usually booked.

And yes the Knockouts getting ratings DOES mean something. Just because you don't like women's wrestling doesn't mean you get to just handwave any accomplishments away. They were consistantly getting the highest ratings on the show week after week for a long stretch of time, and still are usually up there. It's not a case of one segment on one week doing well. It's constant high performance. Saying this means nothing is complete and utter BS.

Not all women's wrestling is awkward, not all of it is "terrible". To say otherwise is completely, OBJECTIVELY wrong. There are tons of women out there that can wrestle as well as most of the male WWE roster. The WWE hires bikini models, not wrestlers. SHIMMER has some amazing wrestlers. Japan and Mexico have them too. I've seen Beth and Katie wrestle matches that put most of the midcard to shame. The WWE could easily up the match quality in the women's division a hundred fold if they actually went and hired some of these women. But no, they're sexist pigs, who only want to hire girls who care more about how huge their assets are and how good they look in a swimsuit over women that love the business. THAT is the real problem.

Managers and valets can be useful, but saying that women should be that and only that is sexist, and people who think that way make me ashamed to be a wrestling fan, and ashamed to be a man. Women deserve the opportunity to wrestle, too.

That's all I really have left to say, and since this is veering off topic, that's all I will say.

 

[Wonderwall]

Mod Note: Even though it's already been said, just to make sure, do not take this topic any further into the sexism territory. Saying women in contact sports in "unfemine" can be considered sexist and calling a company sexist pigs will not be tolerated. Infractions will be dealt out if this continues.

 

[Hobbes829]

i'm just going to make the broader point that talent get those opportunities and storylines if they make the most out of every little opportunity that they are given. If they do well with a little, they will get more chances to show what they've got. That includes the ladies.

 

[Nygma]

^^^

That's not always the case 100% of the time. Also the reason why they never put in any effort towards the side divisions is because the e' is paranoid about not wanting their main eventers getting overshadowed by someone who shows more character, personality, or skill than the main eventers. That's why everything gets watered down, so the main eventers look more interesting by comparison.
That's why Orton's lackeys in Legacy have the same boring look/wrestling style that he does, so they don't look better then him.
Ever wonder why the last time the tag team division was good was in 2000, because the star power in the main events wasn't an issue.
Wonder why the wrestling on Smackdown hasn't been as good since Batista and Undertaker returned, same thing applies there. Not wanting the main eventers getting shown up.

The only ones getting any notable push lately are Sheamus and Drew McIntyre, WHY? Because they're molding them to blend in with the rest of the homogenized main eventers with the same bland style, and the same type of boring entrance music.
There's a couple of exceptions to this (like CM Punk) but even those exceptions either get homogenized or they get depushed. Majority of the time anyways.