"Superman Versus The Elite" Feature Talkback (Spoilers)

[James Harvey]

World Saved. Humanity Lost.


Click here for the The World's Finest review of Superman Versus The Elite!
​

Superman Versus The Elite
Studio: Warner Bros. Animation
Release Date: June 12th, 2012

Synopsis: When catastrophe strikes, Superman once again rushes into action, but this time he gets some unexpected help from a new squad of super heroes called themselves The Elite. Comprised of four powerful beings and spearheaded by the brash and calculating Manchester Black, the new force brings a raw, no-holds-barred mentality to the battle against evil. With swelling public support of The Elite’s vicious methods, the stage is set for a showdown that has Superman feeling outnumbered and outdated. Featuring a stellar voice cast headed by George Newbern, Pauley Perrette and Robin Atkin Downes, this episode DC Comics Premiere Movie adventure exploded with a clash of styles and super powers that begs the question: which will break first - The Man of Steel or his code?

Comments on Superman Versus The Elite?

Please post all discussions concerning about the Superman Versus The Elite animated feature in this thread! Discussion for the home video release of Superman Versus The Elite can be found in the proper talkback linked below.

Related Threads:
-Superman Versus The Elite Feature Review (Spoilers)
-Superman Versus The Elite Blu-ray/DVD Talkback (Spoilers)
-Action Comics #775 Classic Comic Talkback (Spoilers)
-Justice League: Doom Feature Talkback (Spoilers)
-Batman: Year One Feature Talkback (Spoilers)
-Green Lantern: Emerald Knights Feature Talkback (Spoilers)
-All-Star Superman Feature Talkback (Spoilers)
-Superman/Batman: Apocalypse Feature Talkback (Spoilers)
-Batman: Under the Red Hood Feature Talkback (Spoilers)
-Justice League: Crisis on Two Earths Feature Talkback (Spoilers)
-Superman/Batman: Public Enemies Feature Talkback (Spoilers)
-Green Lantern: First Flight Feature Talkback (Spoilers)
-Wonder Woman Feature Talkback (Spoilers)
-Batman: Gotham Knight Feature Talkback (Spoilers)
-Justice League: The New Frontier Feature Talkback (Spoilers)
-Superman Doomsday Feature Talkback (Spoilers)

Note: Remember, this talkback thread is for discussion of the feature film. If you wish to talk about the home video release, please click on the appropriate link above. We appreciate and encourage discussion, but please keep your posts civil, relevant and insightful. Please do not post any improper or inflammatory material, as we will issue warnings if we believe it necessary. And remember to keep the discussion ON-TOPIC!

 

[Cortez2301]

I thought it was pretty damn good, and I haven't said that very often with regards to these DC universe animated films. It worked so well for a 21st Century Superman story and definitely hit the money with the tradition vs modernity aspect with regards to morality, justice and social issues in general. My only complaint, I think, is just with the length and just a few things that take place during the 3rd act as far as resolving the film was concerned. Overall, solid film, and honestly, along with "all-star superman", they really are the best Superman films I've ever seen.

Oh and the animation is quite brilliant, even though it took me a while to get used to the cartoony apsect of the whole thing.


8/10

 

[Bat-Fan Beyond]

Gotta admit, this wasn't as bad as I thought it would be. I can't say it was the best DC animated has had to offer, nor was it the best animated Superman film thus far (I still like All Star Superman a lot more), but this was pretty good. The story certainly raises the question of how relevent Superman actually is today as a hero in this world when he has such moral limitations against killing. The animation wasn't the best. but it really wasn't that bad either. I still don't like the cartoony look of the designs, but I'm sure it was their simplicity that helped make for smoother, more consistent animation. Unfortunately, despite its mature and somewhat dark subject matter, it just seemed like a style that one might see on a lesser quality animated television series -- It lacked a visual edge in design that would have complimented it in style instead of contrasting against it. Still, it was entertaining enough for a rental.

 

[Gold Guy]

This film was actually pretty awesome. To be honest, I maybe wouldn't call this Superman's best film, but I would call it the Superman film with the best plot. It was certainly very thought-provoking; I've even heard it compared to The Dark Knight in terms of moral debate.

I wasn't crazy about the designs, but the actual animation wasn't bad. Superman's voice actor is awesome. For Lois, I still prefer the actress from the DCAU, but this one is a close-second. And the villains, while I wasn't crazy about them, had really cool powers.

The ending was mostly awesome, but the plot twist almost killed the gravity of the scene, IMO.

I'd give it a 8/10.

 

[Donomark]

I've not read "What's so funny about Truth, Justice and the American Way", but the movie itself was very good. It took me a while to get used to the designs, but as someone said above, the animation at the end made up for it. This is probably the best Superman story to tell these days, and George Newburn did a marvelous job in it. This is my favorite of the Superman movies.

 

[cjeromek]

I loved this movie! I loved everything about it. The music, the character designs, and especially the animation from Telecom Animation Film co. ltd. For me this was the best Superman dtv to date. I've already seen it a good two times and am right now fighting the urge to see it a third. Words cannot describe how awesome I think this movie is. I had been waiting for George Newbern to come back and play Superman and he did not disappoint. I hope the crew that worked on this movie also work on the next Superman movie because this was just too awesome for words!

 

[theRedDeath]

Loved it, of course. It directly addresses the age old criticism of what Superman's place is in the modern world. And the answer is to keep on doing what he always had.

So far it's the ONLY one of the DtDVD movies that brings up any real world morality/philosophy issues and challenges America's particular morality on the world stage.

And then on top of that, it was just Superman being awesome, which is always great.

I was turned off by the art style at first too, but thematically it totally makes sense for the movie. It's about old-fashioned values staying true despite superficial shifting trends of the times. The art style reflects Superman's own unwillingness to compromise with the jaded mentality of today.

---

 

[Mr. Hypocrite]

I like what I like, and I liked this.

I've read the original comic story, but I don't think I ever really understood how terrifying the scene with Supes killing the elite was until I heard it with Newbern's voice. He really sold it. A Superman willing to kill is a frightening thing, and something we do not want.

Remember back when George was seen as a cheap replacement for Tim Daly. He's come a long way, and the role is arguably his now as much as the former.

I felt that actually made Black seem a bit sympathetic in the early going, especially when they all worked together to save that train. You got the feeling that that, combined with his sisters' (and seeing Vera was great as well. I knew she was the little girl, but I wasn't sure if we'd see her as an adult) statement about wanting to save him that there was something good in there at some point, and that if things had been a little different, Black could have been a real hero.

The Hat was hilarious. His casual drinking just before Black brought Superman along for the formal introduction, and his one line while fighting Atomic Skull cracked me up.

I actually thought there were a few good laughs in this movie as well (the Martian Manhunter line for one).

So yeah, fun little movie, and a good message about the responsibility that comes with that much power (What? Who's Spider-Man?). This world may not have a superman, but It does need people who hold to certain moral convictions.

 

[Ed Liu]

My review for the News is live now: "Superman vs. the Elite" Pulls Its Punches.

I seem to be the voice of dissent about this movie (which is OK -- I was one of the few who found the Red Hood movie to be underwhelming also). There are a lot of things I like about it, but I find the ultimate answer to be kind of a cop-out.

Also, given recent current events, the Elite's solution to the Bialyia/Pokolistan conflict seems hopelessly naive and bound to create as many problems as it solves, if it solves anything at all. Perhaps that's part of the point, but it's one of the questions that the movie raises but then drops without seeing it through in favor of making the ideological fight between Superman and the Elite into a physical one.

I did really love Pauley Perrette as Lois, though, and found the Lois/Clark dynamic in the movie to be one of the best things about it.

 

[KYO'NYUU IMOUTO]

Actually Ed, I said in the pre-release thread I thought the movie was terrible! I pretty much agree with what you've said, although I'd say I'm less forgiving. The movie-makers forces the audience to side with their own view on the question asked by making the opposition complete and utter monsters. It's obvious for the entire length of the movie how the movie is eventually going to reach a climax. Now, while that could be interesting, it's not when you have a self-proclaimed morality figure being shoved down your throat. For that very reason the entirety of the film falls a part. This is without doubt the worst of the line. Even Redhood which dealt with a similar issue at least had the punch of an emotional connection between the characters. This has nobody's from nowhere show up just to make Superman out as being right, written in as lazily and safe a way possible. Somebody really should have realized this early in production and canned the project to save the budget for something that would succeed in making its point.


That's the most harsh I've been in a while.

 

[BigFatHairyDeal]

Even though I didn't enjoy the film that much, I'm glad that the majority of reviews (thus far) have been positive. Regardless of whether I like the films, I want DC animation to pump out movies that are well-received. Superman was the first hero I followed as a kid, thanks to the Reeve/Donner & Lester films, so there's a lot of sentimental value for me in seeing other fans enjoy Superman stories.

Among the various issues I had with the film, the first is the visuals. I can enjoy a good story with bad visuals, and while the animation and designs didn't exactly destroy the movie, I was most disappointed because the production value seemed comparatively low when lined up next to other DC animation products. I don't know what was the monetary or man-hour expense of the animation of this film, or how it compares to the other DC movies, but that feeling in the back of my mind is that it wasn't at the same level.

My biggest problem with the story is that it seemed to lack nuance. The underlying question of whether or not it's right, justifiable, or productive for the heroes to use lethal force is a fair and complicated question, one which was overly simplified due to the fact that the Elite turned out to be such unstable and sinister individuals. I figured that the main topic of this movie is one that's supposed to make you think because of the moral ambiguities involved. In this movie's case, because the Elite were so clearly misguided, there's a lot less moral ambiguity, and thus, less discussion to be had about it. While I didn't care for the "Sacrifice" story arc in DC Comics, when Superman and Wonder Woman (and to a lesser degree, Batman) were torn over Wonder Woman's decision to eliminate Maxwell Lord, at least "Sacrifice" took a more sophisticated approach on the issue by showing a reasonable, virtuous person (WW) make the gut-wrenching decision to take a bad person's life, rightfully showing her act with conviction for some other reason than enjoying homicide.

I don't know if the decision to use the Superman robots was at all influenced by their presence in All-Star Superman. While I make no demands for continuity among these movies, I do like that there's a general consistency to the movies. By that, I mean it's good that the universes from movie to movie, while not necessarily identical, aren't so dramatically different. In other words, if one Superman has a space-aged Fortress of Solitude, it's better that he continues to have it instead of being comparatively technologically lacking in other films. I was mostly indifferent to the presence of the Robots, but I thought the part at the climax when the robots shielded the civilians from flying debris and other dangers was a little too cartoony in the regard that using the robots as the people's only defense from collateral damaged seemed too risky, a simplistic solution like that could only happen in a cartoon.

To the movie's credit, there were a few moments that had pretty good dramatic impact. It can be a lot of fun to see ruthless Superman once in a while. It's good to see that normally light-hearted Superman chooses to be that way not because he's a naive sucker, but because he's an uncompromising and thoughtfulidealist.

In short, I wasn't very impressed by it, but if the consumers liked it, then I can take satisfaction in that.

 

[JTMarsh]

Just watched it today. I enjoyed it despite not being overly fond of the Family Guy/American Dad style character design on Superman (would have preferred the Crisis on 2 Earths/Doom/Young Justice design). Voice acting was good all around, with George Newbern hitting it out of the ball park as Superman with what may be his best performance yet as the character. This is the kind of plot that Superman Returns should have had rather than boring "baby daddy" melodrama.

 

[Yojimbo]

My review for the News is live now: "Superman vs. the Elite" Pulls Its Punches.

I seem to be the voice of dissent about this movie (which is OK -- I was one of the few who found the Red Hood movie to be underwhelming also). There are a lot of things I like about it, but I find the ultimate answer to be kind of a cop-out.

Hmm, is it a coincidence you didn't like the two movies written by the original stories' writers? Playing devil's advocate, how would you have ended it - them going and talking it out on the Larry King show? I'll admit, when Vera made her cameo to help Lois, I almost thought the 'new' ending was going to involve Superman still fighting them but they both talk it out while fighting and come to a ideological stalemate then Superman meetins with the rest of the JL and they witness the formation of the Justice League Elite instead of Superman and the Elite just going all rock 'em sock'em.

 

[Ed Liu]

Actually Ed, I said in the pre-release thread I thought the movie was terrible!

Ah, well, that assumes I was able to keep up with the pre-release thread...

Hmm, is it a coincidence you didn't like the two movies written by the original stories' writers? Playing devil's advocate, how would you have ended it - them going and talking it out on the Larry King show?

Pretty sure it is just a coincidence. I don't like Judd Winick's writing in general and really hated the Red Hood comics, so it's not much of a surprise that I didn't like the movie. But I do like a lot of Joe Kelly's stuff (I'm definitely in the minority for liking a lot of his JLA run), although over time I've fallen a bit out of love with Action Comics #775, even if I never had much great love for the Authority and their ilk.

As for how I'd have played it, I think the flaw in Action #775 and in this movie starts right from the setup. The Elite are really intended to be stand-ins for the Authority, and there's no way to avoid the fact that they're being set up to take the fall. The ending works because it's a shock to see Superman going too far, but at the same time, I can't believe that the same crowds cheering for the Elite would seriously have that big of a problem watching Superman adopting their methods. Wasn't that the whole point of that montage of people starting to question Superman? I'm sure there are a non-trivial number of people in the audience (both real and in the story) who would have rather seen Superman REALLY doing the things he looked like he was doing to the Elite.

As I mentioned in the review, I thought that they had done the "conflict in good guy methodologies" a lot better in the conflicting agendas during the Cadmus arc of JLU. The trick there was that half the time, you really didn't want anyone to win whatever fight they were in because you always felt that it was kind of a tragedy that they were fighting in the first place. Happened big time in the Superman/Captain Atom showdown, and to a lesser extent in "Clash" and in "The Cat and the Canary." I thought the idea of limits on Superman's power and the fact that he's not there to be the giant babysitter and take care of everything for us was played out well in the Superman: Peace on Earth graphic novel, too, which is another idea touched on in this film but then abandoned.

The simplest change to the movie I can think of would have been some kind of epilogue to show that Superman is still struggling with the ideas the Elite has put in his head instead of having him just fly off with Lois into the sunset, happily every after now that the Bad Guys have been put down. The movie introduced several ways to express their ideological conflict in the Bialyian/Pokolistan war, the Atomic Skull, and the professor and his son. So keep going with that -- maybe Superman gets to talk to Terrence, who's working as a democracy or peace worker in the Bialya/Pokolistan region afterwards ('cuz it's not like just removing the totalitarian leaders in any number of countries recently was sufficient to turn them into stable, egalitarian societies). But I'd also keep the anger Terrence feels about what the Atomic Skull did to Prof. Baxter, as a way to show that Superman's way of thinking is hard to get to, especially when it hits home so personally.

The morality bonus featurette was one of the best I've seen on these things because it made it clear that these questions don't have easy answers. I don't think it's a bad thing to end a movie with ambiguity when you're dealing with big questions that require nuanced answers.

 

[Yojimbo]

The simplest change to the movie I can think of would have been some kind of epilogue to show that Superman is still struggling with the ideas the Elite has put in his head instead of having him just fly off with Lois into the sunset, happily every after now that the Bad Guys have been put down. The movie introduced several ways to express their ideological conflict in the Bialyian/Pokolistan war, the Atomic Skull, and the professor and his son. So keep going with that -- maybe Superman gets to talk to Terrence, who's working as a democracy or peace worker in the Bialya/Pokolistan region afterwards ('cuz it's not like just removing the totalitarian leaders in any number of countries recently was sufficient to turn them into stable, egalitarian societies). But I'd also keep the anger Terrence feels about what the Atomic Skull did to Prof. Baxter, as a way to show that Superman's way of thinking is hard to get to, especially when it hits home so personally.

That is a good point. The sunset ending was a bit mushy and hamfisted. Terrence did surprisingly become a lynchpin character and essentially the voice of the mob mentality. Perhaps an epilogue with Superman attending Prof. Baxter's funeral and Terrence has some words with him? Also going back to the shock factor the crowd experienced, I guess what, they thought Superman was just going to capitulate, retire, and become a recluse? I found their reaction to be a bit jarring as well.

 

[Dusty]

You know I really really was not going to buy this as the animation and character designs were just so not at all what I liked. I am a person who has to not just have a good story, but also the art needs to be equally impressive. And I also knew nothing about the story it was based upon. Me being not just a Superman junkie, but a real big fan of who Superman IS and what he really stands for... is what convinced me to buy this... And I am really glad I did. Like I said, I never saw or read the comic this is based off of (though after seeing that Doug Mahnke was the original artist, I admit I was disappointed that they didn't try to emulate his style for the film,) but that aside I wish that all people who say Superman is "irrelevant" or "boring" would have the patience to sit down and watch this movie along with the small featurette called "Superman and The Moral Debate" The movie itself gave exactly the reason as to why Superman is still very relevant today and always will be. But that small featurette also helps to understand how we as humans feel about such dire topics and how we feel we would approach them. I mean I feel the exact way Superman and many other's do about there being "another way." But I understand the reality that "another way" is right now... so very hard to actually do.
Anyways sorry I am rambling...

...This is a fantastic movie with spectacular acting, George Newbern is back and did such an amazing job... yet again, I loved Pauley Perrette's feisty/tough yet soft/caring Lois, and I thought Robin Atkins Downes did a great job as Manchester... I also have to shout out how even though he had a very small role I loved John Kent's voice actor Paul Eiding, I just love that guy and thought he was such a good choice for Mr. Kent. I also liked how they got David Kaufman back as Jimmy... Again even though he didn't have a large role in the movie, I still enjoyed seeing/hearing him none the less.

So all in all this movie get's 4.9 out of 5.0 stars only because of the art, but I do realize partially why they went with a more cartoony and old style of designs and animation. That's why it still got 4.9 So yeah, I highly recommend to everyone to watch the movie and take from it the bold and clear message it gives, as it is a good one.


D.

 

[kid rabbit]

I like that they made the elite somewhat likeable instead of straight up bad guys
they actully seem to care for eachother and they each have a personally
hats a drunk
coldcast is a loudmouth
pamis horny
manchester black a know it all

 

[Captain Highwind]

Just rented it off PSN

Was not expecting Col. Campbell as Pa Kent. That was awesome. ^ ^

Also Pauley Perrette makes a great Lois.

 

[Bobbywoodhogan]

Just watched this and WOW just WOW. The best animated DC DTV to date in my opinion.

I just love how Superman was portrayed, never before seen him done this much justice in animation.

5 out of 5

Note; The opening credits were awful though

 

[Medinnus]

I didn't hate it, but I think one viewing was more than enough.

The character designs left me cold; I don't like pre-judging those things from the preview information, but in this case, my initial reactions were confirmed.

The storyline was... what I remember from the comic, more or less. For me, the episode is one big straw man, encompassing the fallacy that lethal force is the only alternative to the "catch and release" history of jurisprudence. There are innumerable ways that secular law would evolve to deal with super-powered criminals, but that's a complex answer to a complex issue. The fact of the matter is that Superman's morals are shaped by the genre, with repeating villains a staple - and you don't get repeating villains with lethal force. What we are left with is a self-justifying cycle - we need the Joker to come back because the audience loves him, so Batman doesn't get to avail himself of the same rights to self-defense that any law enforcement officer has.

So we get over-simplification of an unreal situation that only exists as a convention of the literary genre itself - it doesn't even examine the issue in depth. Granted, its just an animated feature of limited duration, but if you are going to attempt to tackle a complex issue, then at least expose some of the arguments in an intelligent fashion. IIRC, even the comic did a better job.

I don't blame the writers, however - they did what they could with the space available. The problem was that the story wasn't suitable for the limits of a DVD animated feature; its like if they tried to adapt the Thanos War into a 30-minute AEMH episode. Its possible, if you cut a lot of the value of the story, and probably adequate for those who've read the original, but for those who don't come in with prior knowledge its just a patchwork mess with none of the impact of the original.