Looking Into It Too Far

[Silly McGooses]

This is kind of long and may be offensive to some, so beware...

It's true that Batman: The Animates Series is a show that is not enjoyed just by kids. But that doesn't mean that kids can't enjoy it fifty times more than the adults that watch the show. Why? I know because I grew up on the show, and I remember it being a very magical thing to me. And now that I've come back to the show on DVD with a more intelligent eye, I find that much of the magic is gone. And it's not because my tastes have changed, it's just that it really isn't a very sophisticated show, and I see that now. It was a show that can be enjoyed by adults, but is MEANT FOR KIDS. That doesn't mean it's not utterly brilliant
Then came Superman: The Animated Series. Let's think about this, folks. An alien from another planet comes to earth and decides to fight for justice wearing blue tights and a big, red cape. This isn't the stuff that great literature is made of, very little in superhero comics is. Sometimes, I think, we take it all too seriously. Superman is a character originally made for kids, by people who were barely adults.
And we are so greedy about it all. We talk about these shows, and those that came after it, as if they were made exclusively for adult fans. Uh-uh. The majority of the audience is made up of kids, and that's the way it should be. No offense to anyone, but Justice League Unlimited (and even more so, Teen Titans) is a completely JUVENILE show. Does that mean we can't enjoy it? Again, no. We can love the show, but WB would not let the show be made if it weren't for the younger audience. The audience that the show is targeted at in all the ads. Even Batman:TAS spent most of its life on Fox Kids and Kids WB, remember?
Now we come to the new show, the Batman. The show everyone seems to hate! Why? Why do we all hate it so much? BECAUSE IT'S TOO KIDDY FOR US. AND THAT'S BECUSE I T I S A S H O W F O R K I D S !


ahem...but I digress...

 

[karasu]

Let's think about this, folks. An alien from another planet comes to earth and decides to fight for justice wearing blue tights and a big, red cape. This isn't the stuff that great literature is made of, very little in superhero comics

That is exactly the stuff Great literature is made of! The Illyiad, Journey to the West, Outlaws of the Marsh. All stories of the 'fantastic'. Batman:TAS, and Superman TAS are what happens when your fans become adults. It's how characters stay relevant as oppossed to bein a memory. If the JLU was only intended for kids, it surely wouldn't air after 8pm lol.

 

[Mister Intensity]

Not that I disagree with you but man, you are way too young to be so cynical. Talk to me when you are eighteen or better yet twenty-one. Stop trying to be so grown.

Mister Intensity

 

[b.t.]

y'know, this has the makings of a VERY fascinating discussion. i hope people can keep their tempers in check -- some might very well take offense at Silly McGooses' assertion, but i think it's a valid point. i'll be watching this thread (and may weigh in with my take on the subject later)...

 

[shany94a]

It may say "Kids" on the box/case and you usually have to find the videos/DVDs under the Family section, but I was in my 20s when BTAS premiered, and I've never been ashamed to say I've enjoyed it.

 

[Mister Intensity]

I don't take offensive at his remark, in fact, I agree with it but for someone who is technically in the KidsWB demographic to say this sounds like a lot of the teens on this board who try to sound like grown ups by justifying why they still watch kids cartoons when it really doesn't need any justification. I'm saying if you're a kid enjoy being a kid and stop trying to sound so grown. If you're an adult then stop trying to justify why you're watching kid shows and just accept that you are watch and enjoy kids shows. There's nothing wrong with either.

Mister Intensity

 

[Mister Intensity]

I was in college when B:TAS series debuted and been watching it and its spin-offs ever since.

Mister Intensity

 

[krazymed]

I don't understand why people are worried about watching something for fear that they will be told they aren't supposed to be watching it. Sure, the networks may say who the target audience is intended to be, but that's all it is, an intended target. Watch what you want. If people start yelling it's a kids' show or a boys' show or whatever like it's a crime for anyone else to enjoy it, then that's their problem, not yours.

 

[Killtacular]

If you only watch shows because they're in your demographic, or feel you have to justify your enjoyment of a show by saying it was clearly targetting you, then I could never consider you to be a true animation fan. I watch Venture Bros, but I also watch Billy and Mandy; I watch Cowboy Bebop, but I also watch Kodocha and Hare & Guu; I watch Justice League but I also watch Teen Titans... and I still say Superman is tops. I'm not ashamed of any of it. Everyone that knows me knows I watch cartoons and THEY DON'T CARE, and NEITHER do I. Because that shouldn't be something people judge you for, and even if they did, WHY would it bother you?

Batman, Superman, Justice League, Teen Titans, The Batman.. they were all created for 6-11/9-14 audiences. This is the primary audience of these shows. Obviously the writers want to appeal to comic book geeks but they do not write the episodes just to impress you guys. That would translate to inexistant ratings. They are trying to cover all the bases. They want kids to enjoy the stories even if they don't understand where some of the superheroes come from. They are not trying to "water down" anything. Rather they try to write ahead of the curve and let the kids evolve and adapt to that style. It's a better kind of writing than you'll see in shows like Atomic Betty or Totally Spies that talks down to its audience and further melts kids' minds like Superman frying Doomsday. This writing doesn't make it adult. It simply makes it GOOD. And script quality, to me, is more important than how much mature content exists within that script.

It'd be like Marvel geeks trying to claim Spiderman 2 is a movie for adults only. You may think "Well that's just silly." Well, Spiderman 2 is an incredibly emotional and complex superhero film, on par-- if not excelling-- the best DCAU material. But it's a film that is loved by FAMILIES. A film that kids love, adults love, teen internet nerds love, and even movie critics love. Now, tell me, what would be gained by this movie, say, inserting a couple of swears and blood to get a PG-13 rating? Nothing. That's why I feel that people expecting the DCAU to 'grow up with them' is a little short-sighted. It doesn't need to be for adults, or have a TV-14 rating, to tell powerful, involved stories that further the humanity of superheroes. So don't try and cram it into that niche. It's doing what it wants to do just fine.

You know, my rants often start on one point, start to tip, and fall over into another point that's only vaguely similar. Sorry about that.

 

[Temple Fugate]

I was 10 when I saw the BTAS premiere on Fox Kids, and to this day I'm watching every episode of JLU. These shows never lost their magic; at least, not the magic that I've seen in them. Batman is, IMO, one of the most complex characters in modern fiction. (That includes all prose, animation, movies, comic books, etc.) He and his fellow superheroes are handled by a talented creative team that has respect for each one of them (Yes, even Flash. I doubt he wouldn't have been placed in the original lineup if he was disrespected.).

Granted, as a film student I rewatch my Batman DVDs and notice the dust and the occasional animation goof, or the quirky title card that's not panning at the same rate as the rest of the scene, but from a writing and directing standpoint, these series are top notch. Of course there are episodes clearly for kids ("Be A Clown" for example), ones that I don't get as much enjoyment out of as I do, say, "Heart of Ice" or "FTMWHE," and I recognize they have to aim for a certain demographic. But Timm & Co aren't about to forget the fans who grew up watching their stuff, or even those who grew up long before who watch these shows because they've been reading comics for decades.

I can't weigh in on The Batman because I haven't gotten around to watching it, but it sounds like a show aiming for its "tween" demographic and nowhere else.

Those of us above the target demographic here aren't trying to hog the DCAU for ourselves. But I have to admit, I do wish the kids watching The Batman on WB! could experience the same kind of show we've enjoyed. The truth is, they probably won't, and unless they discover BTAS themselves, they'll have a different model for Batman than we do. But that's life. Every generation has their own ideas and culture. It's not for those who came before to dictate what should be done today should be the exact same as what's been done a decade ago.

Wow, this is getting really long. I apologize for this. In closing, Silly McGooses has the right point; Older viewers (16+) have no right to complain about a show that is doing what it's supposed to do...which does not include pleasing us. And we do have every right to enjoy any shows regardless of our age and regargless of its target audience. As much as we wish the old days could live all over again, it's never going to happen. Complaining about The Batman will ultimately do nothing except to make us feel mature, but in reality will make us look pretentious and immature.

Moral of this story: I talk too much. And the DCAU rocks.

[EDIT: I was only 9 when BTAS premiered, actually. And darnit, everyone else is doing a better job arguing my point than I did.]

 

[Calico]

I don't understand why people are worried about watching something for fear that they will be told they aren't supposed to be watching it. Sure, the networks may say who the target audience is intended to be, but that's all it is, an intended target. Watch what you want. If people start yelling it's a kids' show or a boys' show or whatever like it's a crime for anyone else to enjoy it, then that's their problem, not yours.

^^ What they said.

 

[Maxie Zeus]

Oh my God, my life has been wasted!

Okay, seriously …

It's a legitimate and interesting claim to make. I don't agree with it, but I sure don't think anyone should get upset about it. But I disagree with it, for two reasons.

* I don't think much of the supposed distinction between "kid" stuff and "adult" stuff.
* I think there is plenty in the DCAU shows to entertain and reward adult viewers.

Okay, a big caveat at the start. There is literature (by which I mean books and movies and TV shows) that is made for and likely enjoyed only by kids, and there is literature that is made for and likely enjoyed only by adults. There is also stuff that is appropriate only for adults. But I don't think much of either of those "genres."

When people divide literature into "kid" vs. "adult" kinds, I think it's because they've got this odd picture that kids and adults are different species with tastes and interests that couldn't possibly overlap. But why should we believe this? They are both people; it's just that kids are relatively uneducated and unsophisticated compared to adults. That means there are some things that appeal to a person's interests and sensibility when they are kids that don't appeal to them when they are adults, and vice versa.

But everyone enjoys good storytelling about interesting characters. Take Star Wars, for example. Is that a "kids" movie or an "adult" movie? It's neither, which is to say it is simply good, solid storytelling with a bright, engaging plot.and it isn't limited to one "sensibility." So it appeals to both.

Kids don't go into a cocoon and metamorphose into strange creatures called "adults"; they simply accumulate more experience and sophistication and so come to have a wider, deeper and richer range of appreciation. For that reason, there are plenty of stories that cannot be fully comprehended or enjoyed by a child. But if a story that appeals to kids is good it will also (to some extent) appeal to an adult because that person will still have much of the "kid" inside of him or her. (I adore Teen Titans, because my inner ten-year-old is still alive and well inside of me, and he starts bouncing on the couch when the TT theme song starts playing.) And I think it's a mark of a first-rate piece of literature that it can appeal to you when you're a kid but reveal more and more things to you as you become an adult and come to appreciate its other qualities. I read The Lord of the Rings when I was eight and loved hi as an adventure story; I still love it, but I now see that it contains so much more. It's the same with Willie Wonka and the Chocolate Factory, and the Marx Brothers, and Looney Tunes.

It's not quite the same with the DCAU for me, because I was an adult already when BTAS premiered. But I immediately saw that beneath its pulp, adventurous, kid-friendly surface was a dark and provocative heart. The look and adventures of the characters may be outrageous, but psychologically they are very real. Wait until you get your first unrequited crush, and I guarantee that "Mad as a Hatter" will make you tear up. It did me, when I first saw it. The adventures are still exciting, so the kid in me sees fun, thrilling tales; but the adult in me sees realistic, interesting people; the aesthete sees playful, genre-bending games; and the academic philosopher sees provocative situations.

There might be an age when someone doesn't find it so compelling; judging by the bio info in your profile, you might be at that age, when one kind of appreciation has begun to pall but other, more adult perspectives have not kicked in. There's nothing wrong with that, but I don't think you can generalize.

Oh, and The Batman? Seems to me like a show that had good stuff for the kids, and I dutifully applaud it for that. But, from what I've seen, it hasn't the dimensions or depths of the DCAU shows. I'm not interested in ragging on it. I prefer to save my darts for those (thankfully rare) times that b.t. and company don't live up to my excruciatingly high standards.

 

[fatboy]

......I do wish the kids watching The Batman on WB! could experience the same kind of show we've enjoyed. The truth is, they probably won't, and unless they discover BTAS themselves, they'll have a different model for Batman than we do. But that's life. Every generation has their own ideas and culture. It's not for those who came before to dictate what should be done today should be the exact same as what's been done a decade ago.....

My first exposure to Batman was the 60s TV show. Was it accurate to the source material? Nope. But it did succeed in turning me into a HUGE Batman fan and of course later I went and checked out all the cool stuff that came before and after that show (Bill Finger, Frank Robbins, Denny O' Neil, Bernnie Wrightson, Neil Adams, Michael Golden, etc.). So even if you hate the new show, maybe a good way to look at it is as a springboard for kids to check out other Batman stuff later......like b.t.s version.

 

[MJC]

I realize that most cartoons are aimed at a young demographic, and that's fine. That said, a young demographic is no excuse for a show to be crap, nor is it an excuse for a show to insult the viewer's intelligence. It's very annoying when writers assume kids are dumb.

When I was a "tween", I enjoyed a lot of the same stuff I do now. I didn't need "kiddy" dialogue, bright colors, force-fed morals, overly simple plots, etc. to be entertained (I was an avid fan of Spider-man:TAS and Batman even then, and never had trouble following the plotlines...even the convoluted Spidey ones). I hated shows that insulted my intelligence then as much as I do now.

I guess my point is that a young demographic is no excuse for a show to suck, whether it appeals to an older audience or not.

 

[Doomsday]

I sort of agree with Silly McGooses to a certain degree. These shows are made for kids but that doesn't mean that adults can't enjoy them just as much. They might make it for kids but that doesn't mean they won't throw in things for adults as well. In Hearts and Minds, you know they threw in some things for us to make it more fun to watch. Now I don't think Batman or any of the other cartoons ever lost their magic. And I don't think Superman was aimed differently, it was just a different show. Batman is just in a dark city and does good deeds differently. Now why people hate The Batman so much is not because its aimed at kids but because its a really poor show. The writting is weak and the designs are awful. Come on the sky keeps changing from green to red. And theres no different shades of green and red, just one color for the whole sky. Plus the Bat Wave, a really lame device, just sounds like it was made to sell as a toy. Even though a cartoon is made for kids, it doesn't mean its bad and things in it can't be for adults. If I think cartoons are for kids and don't watch it just for that reason, I'll never watch my favorite shows, like Family Guy, which has a lot of adult humor in it.

 

[Mister Intensity]

There might be an age when someone doesn't find it so compelling; judging by the bio info in your profile, you might be at that age, when one kind of appreciation has begun to pall but other, more adult perspectives have not kicked in. There's nothing wrong with that, but I don't think you can generalize.

Thanks, Maxie, that's exactly what I was trying to say in my first post but you said it so much more eloquently. When I was around fourteen I thought I was too old for many things and wanted things to be more "adult" but you really don't know what adult means until you are an adult and even then it may take a few years.

Mister Intensity

 

[James]

It's not quite the same with the DCAU for me, because I was an adult already when BTAS premiered. But I immediately saw that beneath its pulp, adventurous, kid-friendly surface was a dark and provocative heart. The look and adventures of the characters may be outrageous, but psychologically they are very real. Wait until you get your first unrequited crush, and I guarantee that "Mad as a Hatter" will make you tear up. It did me, when I first saw it. The adventures are still exciting, so the kid in me sees fun, thrilling tales; but the adult in me sees realistic, interesting people; the aesthete sees playful, genre-bending games; and the academic philosopher sees provocative situations.

I'm stealing from my old (and I don't use the term lightly, lalala) pal here. I totally agree. I have no "kid" nostalgia when it comes to BTAS. I was an adult when I first saw it, and more of an adult when I seriously got into it (which was really a few years ago after being sucked into Batman Beyond). So I agree. Yes, it's demograph is for kids, but there is so much more there. Going beyond the layers of the show that deal Maxie comments on, just the style of the visuals, the direction and whole ambience is something very special. I'm not trying to make obvious knocks against "The Batman"'s style - it suddenly is done with a style and quality, but from my similar adult head which watched both BTAS at conception and "The Batman", I can tell you without fear of it being "nostalgia" that it does lack a certain unique quality that BTAS prevailed with.

Oh, and The Batman? Seems to me like a show that had good stuff for the kids, and I dutifully applaud it for that. But, from what I've seen, it hasn't the dimensions or depths of the DCAU shows.

Very much so. As a kid I would have loved it. As a kid I would have loved BTAS. As an adult, I find some of the characterizations in "The Batman" uncomfortable, and some of the script and story clunky. I KNOW as a kid that wouldn't have mattered to me. I would have been entranced by those elements the creators KNOW will entrance kids. That Batwave, the Batmobile, the fights... so when I say I prefer BTAS over "The Batman" it's from an adult perspective. I'm not saying whether it deserves to lick BTAS' shoes, or whether it should be allowed airtime. Simply, it's not got the layers BTAS had. That's fine, it was never meant to.

I think it's good to remind people that both were aimed at kids. That BTAS wasn't some adult show that a couple of kids liked and now we are stuck with a show for kiddies that adults sneer at. I think it's also important to allow those who don't like "The Batman" as much to be given the dignity to dislike it for reasons beyong "it's not BTAS".

BTAS was special. Heck, Batman Beyond was - and that was VERY kiddified in certain respects, but it was that show which brought me back to BTAS. So I can like obviously kiddie targetted shows, however BB was a clever show it's own rights for reasons which are for another thread on another day...

I'm happy that I'm lucky enough to have seen all these shows while I was an adult and thereby be able to say what I think of them without worrying about "childhood nostalgia affecting my perception". I'd also like to think as a reasonably bright human being I can quantify what it is I like - or dislike - in each of these Batshows.

 

[karasu]

Agreed. I watch old episodes of GI JOE or The Thundercats and it blows my mind how I ever loved those shows so much.

I was 17 when I started watching BTAS in ninety four.

 

[Temple Fugate]

Agreed. I watch old episodes of GI JOE or The Thundercats and it blows my mind how I ever loved those shows so much.

I was 17 when I started watching BTAS in ninety four.

I second that. How could I have possibly wanted to watch those shows every weekday? My parents must have been so worried about my development.

And come to think of it, I was only 9 when BTAS appeared, not 10. Man, I can't believe it's been 12 years...

 

[Yojimbo]

I watched BTAS when I was 5, and now when I look back and watch these cartoons I enjoy it more because I can apply stuff I learned from English classes, Sociology and Psychology to it and I see the shows are even cooler.
Like in Kill Bill2, Carradine's little reference to Superman, something like Clark Kent was Superman's own interpretation of the human race on Earth, cowardly, shy, etc. And then there's Batman, Wayne ceased to be Wayne when his parents were killed, instead he transformed into Batman and Wayne simply became a mask. Then the Wayne Manor is physical manifestation of Batman's mind, the shots of the Manor look like Batman's cowl with the pointy ears and all. Then you could argue from BB, Batman decided to wear the Wayne mask fulltime and remained isolated in his home/mind, avoiding his subconscious and true persona-Batcave for decades. But I digress, you don't have to be part of an intended demographic to enjoy a certain show.