C&C - Tokyo Ghoul - "Cloudburst" [5/6]

[QWER5]

I kind of find the idea that ghouls needing to eat humans harder to sympathize with, weird. When the situation is literally that they will die if they don't, I honestly can't accept the idea that people should resign themselves to death, over a quirk of biology that they had no choice in.

Giving the situation that most ghouls find themselves in, where most humans consider them monsters and they will be killed if they're found out, it makes sense that a lot of them would defensively go "just don't care about what the humans think, then, they're only food". Even then you still have ones like Hinami and her parents, who just can't bring themselves to kill people despite clearly being strong enough to do so. Honestly, in real life I don't think a situation like this would be as black-and-white as a lot of you, and even the show sometimes, makes it out to be.

And that's not to say the humans in this show are entirely wrong to fear ghouls, obviously. Whether it's a chicken and egg situation a lot of ghouls go well beyond killing for their survival and that has to be dealt with. But that I think that's supposed to be part of the contrast with the Dove Duo here: one of them just considers it a job, and takes no pleasure in killing, where as the other clearly revels in it much more than he should.

 

[Light Lucario]

I'm not saying that the ghouls should die instead of trying to survive exactly. I'm saying that there show hasn't really given me a reason to care about ghouls surviving despite the fact that they have to eat people in order to live. It really doesn't help with how they first presented ghouls in the first couple of episodes. First impressions do count and they made the ghouls seem pretty villainous there only to turn around trying to make them sympathetic just a few episodes later. The case with Hinami works better than the first time, but I can't really get over the whole needing to eat people thing and the show isn't really helping with that. Like I said before, it comes off like the show wanted to make the ghouls look like monsters and sympathetic at the same time. That wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing, but with the way it has been presented thus far, it just comes off sloppy or like they didn't know what they wanted to do instead of something they deliberately wanted to do.

Part of the problem might be just how their physically designed to not eat anything other than flesh. I guess it's just part of their biology, but when ghouls are able to blend in so perfectly well with humans, it just seems weird that they can't eat anything else. Maybe this would work a bit better for me if something within them urged them to go hunting for humans and they could still eat regular food in other cases, but that might be too much like a werewolf instead of a ghoul. Even the parasites eating other people in Parasyte made more sense to me, especially when they were aliens and with few exceptions up until the ending, couldn't blend into society nearly as seamless as the ghouls can.

 

[QWER5]

I can admit that the first impression doesn't mesh well with the conflict trying to be presented. That can probably be blamed on trying to make big first impression, but it helps that even the first ghoul we saw was considered a menace and anomaly even by other ghouls.

I also think there is supposed to be a bit of a compulsion going by how Kaneki acted in the beginning and Touka telling him how bad the hunger is going to get, but they really haven't dwelled on that, so it's not that great of defense.

My point is, I think they've shown enough that you can infer that Ghouls aren't born sadistic monsters but more that their lot in life forces many of them to go that route, because they think it's what they need to do to survive. Though, I also get why you'd think the show hasn't done a good enough job at that.

 

[PapaGreg]

I can admit that the first impression doesn't mesh well with the conflict trying to be presented. That can probably be blamed on trying to make big first impression, but it helps that even the first ghoul we saw was considered a menace and anomaly even by other ghouls.

I also think there is supposed to be a bit of a compulsion going by how Kaneki acted in the beginning and Touka telling him how bad the hunger is going to get, but they really haven't dwelled on that, so it's not that great of defense.

My point is, I think they've shown enough that you can infer that Ghouls aren't born sadistic monsters but more that their lot in life forces many of them to go that route, because they think it's what they need to do to survive. Though, I also get why you'd think the show hasn't done a good enough job at that.

That reminds me of another problem with this series, the worldbuilding. I don't know I think its kinda stupid that we are only focusing on Japan's ghoul problem and not the rest of the world like how does America deal with ghouls or Saudi Arabia or Jamaica are Ghoul cultures different from across the world. Another thing is that how come humans don't give Ghouls bodies from cadviers I mean there must be tons of John and Jane Doe and they said that one human body can feed a Ghoul for 2 months. I mean I feel as if feeding Ghouls would be a hell of a lot safer than hunting them

 

[PicardMan]

The problem is that the "sympathetic" Nishiki went way too far with the "I'm going to eat your best friend right in front of you" scene. Does anyone remember that?

 

[Light Lucario]

I can admit that the first impression doesn't mesh well with the conflict trying to be presented. That can probably be blamed on trying to make big first impression, but it helps that even the first ghoul we saw was considered a menace and anomaly even by other ghouls.

I also think there is supposed to be a bit of a compulsion going by how Kaneki acted in the beginning and Touka telling him how bad the hunger is going to get, but they really haven't dwelled on that, so it's not that great of defense.

My point is, I think they've shown enough that you can infer that Ghouls aren't born sadistic monsters but more that their lot in life forces many of them to go that route, because they think it's what they need to do to survive. Though, I also get why you'd think the show hasn't done a good enough job at that.

That's a good point on how the first ghoul we were introduced to was considered a strange one even by other ghouls, but it might not have been a good idea to use a character like that for the start of the series. That and Nikishi's actions when he confronted Kaneki definitely didn't help with making ghouls look sympathetic. I understand that they need villains, but it just creates a strange contrast to me.

I did think of the hunger compelling them after making that post, which does seem to be the case when ignoring the hunger was putting a lot of mental stress on Kaneki, but I was thinking of something like a desire to kill instead of to eat forcing them to attack people. That still sounds more like werewolves than ghouls, but I think that would make a bit more sense for me than they can only eat humans. I can still see what they're trying to go for with the basic setup, but the execution seems pretty weak to me thus far.

That reminds me of another problem with this series, the worldbuilding. I don't know I think its kinda stupid that we are only focusing on Japan's ghoul problem and not the rest of the world like how does America deal with ghouls or Saudi Arabia or Jamaica are Ghoul cultures different from across the world. Another thing is that how come humans don't give Ghouls bodies from cadviers I mean there must be tons of John and Jane Doe and they said that one human body can feed a Ghoul for 2 months. I mean I feel as if feeding Ghouls would be a hell of a lot safer than hunting them

I don't mind focusing just on Japan's ghoul problem since that's where I assume the majority of the series will take place. It does have the drawback of making ghouls look like they're just a problem in Japan or in this one city though. Plus, I still find the worldbuilding to be pretty weak even with just focusing on Japan's ghoul problem.

I have been wondering why they don't just give ghouls dead bodies too. Admittedly, it wouldn't be a perfect solution. There would still be plenty of people who wouldn't want them to eat their dead loved ones and ghouls themselves would still be seen as monsters, but it does sound like a better solution than hunting humans. There wouldn't be fights over territories and ghouls wouldn't have to kill people in order to survive, so there would be less of a moral conflict for them as well. That's basically what the cafe is in a sense. They just collect dead bodies instead of hunting for them or being given to them, but it still serves the same function. I'd kind of expect that these cafes would be more common because it provides an easier solution for ghouls, although I guess finding dead bodies might be kind of tricky in some areas.

The problem is that the "sympathetic" Nishiki went way too far with the "I'm going to eat your best friend right in front of you" scene. Does anyone remember that?

Oh yeah. I remember how he needlessly injured Hide, provoked Kaneki through some pretty brutal attacks and was so over the top evil that he was a bit on the nose about the general conflict of the show. And yet, we're also supposed to feel bad for him because of how he lost his sister and was willing to sacrifice himself for his girlfriend. His feelings for his girlfriend did seem genuine at least, but after what he did, I think Nishiki needed a lot more than a tragic backstory and a desire to save a love interest to make him sympathetic, especially when they just threw it in all of a sudden in the first place.

 

[Nobodyman]

You know, this episode tried so hard to make feel bad about what happened to the girl and her family that, actually, it succeeded in making me not care.

Yes, show, I get what you're doing. Shut up.

 

[Scrappy-Fan92]

*Looks at discussion* We're not even half-way done with this season and everyone's already noticed several potential holes in the plot. We're in for a ride, folks.

As for this episode I thought it was alright, if emotionally manipulative. Did Hinami have to lose her dad so soon? And I agree with Kaneki's worry over how petty Touka's decision to spare Nishio's girlfirend was.