YTV to air JLU 'Task Force X' (Aired, SPOILERS)

[Knight]

When J'onn showed up, and everything following it... I think I've been turned to a path of being a J'onn fan.

Im a J'onn fan too and had been really wanting to see him get into action and he doesn't disappoint.

However the J'onn attitude after the events that occurred were somewhat disturbing.Wanting to erase Vance's memory was a little extreme. Even John Stewart was shocked by his comments. J'onn was understandably hurt though. Vance had been their for 2 years working with them. J'onn felt betrayed. Now they know they cant trust any of the people working up their and will have to try to tighten security even further

 

[Devils_Advocate]

Im a J'onn fan too and had been really wanting to see him get into action and he doesn't disappoint.

However the J'onn attitude after the events that occurred were somewhat disturbing.Wanting to erase Vance's memory was a little extreme. Even John Stewart was shocked by his comments. J'onn was understandably hurt though. Vance had been their for 2 years working with them. J'onn felt betrayed. Now they know they cant trust any of the people working up their and will have to try to tighten security even further

Actually J'onn's attitude made sense to me. 1) I think he was been more and more disenchanted with humans over the last 3 years but 2) and more importantly, I was under the impression that J'onn is in charge of the watchtower, including security. His security measures failed, which means he failed. J'onn seems like the type to take any measure, no matter how extreme, to ensure he did not fail again.

D_A

 

[Knight]

Actually J'onn's attitude made sense to me. 1) I think he was been more and more disenchanted with humans over the last 3 years but 2) and more importantly, I was under the impression that J'onn is in charge of the watchtower, including security. His security measures failed, which means he failed. J'onn seems like the type to take any measure, no matter how extreme, to ensure he did not fail again.

D_A

I was talking about J'onns behavior as far as erasing a persons memory. Being upset is fine. J'onn is in charge of The Watchtower and the security did fail. All he can do is try to fix it so that it doesnt happen again.

Contemplating memory eraser after the damage is already done would be a personal violation that wopuldnt accomplish anything. This was pointed out by John Stewart. The damage was already done and he had almost certainly told all he knew. Erasing Vance's memory would have only served the purpose of self satisfaction for J'onn and allowing him to get back at someone he felt betrayed him.

 

[Devils_Advocate]

I was talking about J'onns behavior as far as erasing a persons memory. Being upset is fine. J'onn is in charge of The Watchtower and the security did fail. All he can do is try to fix it so that it doesnt happen again.

Contemplating memory eraser after the damage is already done would be a personal violation that wopuldnt accomplish anything. This was pointed out by John Stewart. The damage was already done and he had almost certainly told all he knew. Erasing Vance's memory would have only served the purpose of self satisfaction for J'onn and allowing him to get back at someone he felt betrayed him.

I disagree, sorry.

I think that the need to erase the last 3 years of memory is more than the feeling he's been betrayed. Vance gave information to Cadmus. But the league would not want Vance to be able to give/sell the knowledge of the watchtower to others...there are many villians, governments and others who would want this info. So though erasing his memory is extreme, I do think it would serve a purpose, a very important one at that.

D_A

 

[paulie]

The info that Vance gave out is just that---out. There's no way that erasing his memory is going to stop that flow of information anymore. So I see J'onn's desire to mindwipe the same way Knight does: it's for making J'onn feel better after getting caught with his pants down. It may seem like a rational decision (plug the leak before anything esle gets out), but it's certainly not a compassionate or long-term one. This is why it's so surprising; it's not the J'onn I'm accustomed to seeing...although he did crack Kragger's mind. And it was the only thing in "Task Force X" that seemed out-of-rhythm...otherwise, the episode was really, really well done.

I'm starting to see a little of what Maxie has talked about, as far as the heros becoming unlikeable. Along witht the way J'onn treated Flash in TTTB, it seems like J'onn's attitude has taken a turn for the worse (which is a real bummer). We'll see how that progresses through this arc.

 

[Devils_Advocate]

The info that Vance gave out is just that---out. There's no way that erasing his memory is going to stop that flow of information anymore. So I see J'onn's desire to mindwipe the same way Knight does: it's for making J'onn feel better after getting caught with his pants down. It may seem like a rational decision (plug the leak before anything esle gets out), but it's certainly not a compassionate or long-term one.

You think Cadmus is going to share the information with others????? If anything, Cadmus is more secretive than the Justice league. I think that if J'onn didn't mind wipe Vance, Cadmus would make certain he wouldn't have the ability to "share" what he knows with others.

I asserted that I think J'onn's proposed action was extreme but I can understand where he is coming from.

What is more interesting to me is that we now know it has been 3 years between Starcrossed and Task Force X since J'onn stated that he would like to erase the last 3 years.

D_A

 

[paulie]

You think Cadmus is going to share the information with others?????

I think there are certain unscrupulous individuals working for Cadmus that, yes, would take that extremely valuable information and use it to their own benefit (not necessarily Cadmus' benefit) by way of selling it or blackmailing others. There's 3 of them left on TFX, for example. Why wouldn't Deadshot take that opportunity? Or others? Sure, Deadshot probably doesn't have the highest-level stuff, but he may not need it for his purposes.

The cat's outta the bag now, is all I'm saying.

EDIT: you also hit another point I was hesitant to bring up...and that's "what happened between Starcrossed and JLU?" I know we'll never know, but I feel like, in some sense, J'onn's attitude is reflective of something that we didn't get to see, because mindwiping is pretty darn extreme. Why create this big JLU and Watchtower with tons of support staff, then get mad when all this highly public and vunerable enterprise gets goosed? It was bound to happen.

 

[Knight]

I disagree, sorry.

I think that the need to erase the last 3 years of memory is more than the feeling he's been betrayed. Vance gave information to Cadmus. But the league would not want Vance to be able to give/sell the knowledge of the watchtower to others...there are many villians, governments and others who would want this info. So though erasing his memory is extreme, I do think it would serve a purpose, a very important one at that.

D_A

I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

The Justice League is a private entity and for Vance it was a job. I dont care what secrets I find out at my job if im caught my employer doesnt have the right to erase my mind even if they could. All people have basic civil rights even Vance. The JL has to have guidelines. If you think Batman flipped over Doomsday what would a action like this make him think? There is no way he would approve of that measure.

Erasing a persons memory is something that The League cannot set themselves up to be the authority of. Once you start preforming actions like that just because you can, how long will it be before you are putting heat beams to peoples heads and alteraing their personalities all together?

 

[Trevor Balena]

Whoa, Identity Crisis flashback...


OK, I'm all right now.

 

[Devils_Advocate]

I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

The Justice League is a private entity and for Vance it was a job. I dont care what secrets I find out at my job if im caught my employer doesnt have the right to erase my mind even if they could. All people have basic civil rights even Vance. The JL has to have guidelines. If you think Batman flipped over Doomsday what would a action like this make him think? There is no way he would approve of that measure.

Erasing a persons memory is something that The League cannot set themselves up to be the authority of. Once you start preforming actions like that just because you can, how long will it be before you are putting heat beams to peoples heads and alteraing their personalities all together?

I think you were under the impression that I was giving a moral opinion that such an action, as erasing memory, would be okay. I was not giving any such opinion. I was trying to illustrate, not well obviously, that I understood J'onn's thought process. For one, this is not just a job. The watchtower has awesome weaponry and technology that must be protected. Imagine working for Lockhead, or other private concern companies that produce top secret and dangerous technology. Giving or selling the secrets is not only consequenced with a loss of your job.

As for the potential of erasing memories and other such actions, to me the thought process touches on the justification for "immoral" acts and violating "civil rights" used every day. Think of the U.S. attorney general which justifies torture in the name of national security for one example.

I think it makes JLU more interesting that there are these gray areas and the question of what makes a hero gets murky. This is no longer the days of the 40s batman/superman 22 minute serials when the heros were just soooo good. The heros are now in shades of gray and sometimes more toward the dark than light which in contrast means some of the villians are not so evil and may not be villians at all.

Remember, one persons revolutionary is another person's traitor. Only depends which side of the coin you get your perspective from.


D_A

 

[Requiem]

Although J'onn's threat of mind wiping is certainly disturbing for his character, would it be fair to say that he said such a thing out of the heat of the moment? As people mentioned, he worked with Vance and the workers probably day in and day out, and a betrayal like that can stir up strong emotions. Like how some people may have bad arguments with a friend or family (maybe felt like being betrayed as J'onn was) and at that time you might say to yourself "I just want to punch the guy!"

And along that line, after cooling down with a chance to think things through, he may regret for thinking such an idea. And even if he had carried out that threat, I'd like to think he would feel very guilty after the consequences of his actions sink in.

Or they just want to keep reminding us of the Justice Lords...

 

[Knight]

I think you were under the impression that I was giving a moral opinion that such an action, as erasing memory, would be okay. I was not giving any such opinion. I was trying to illustrate, not well obviously, that I understood J'onn's thought process.

My apologies for mistaking you for being pro mind wipe.

Although J'onn's threat of mind wiping is certainly disturbing for his character, would it be fair to say that he said such a thing out of the heat of the moment? As people mentioned, he worked with Vance and the workers probably day in and day out, and a betrayal like that can stir up strong emotions. Like how some people may have bad arguments with a friend or family (maybe felt like being betrayed as J'onn was) and at that time you might say to yourself "I just want to punch the guy!"

And along that line, after cooling down with a chance to think things through, he may regret for thinking such an idea. And even if he had carried out that threat, I'd like to think he would feel very guilty after the consequences of his actions sink in.

I guess thats all possible. It could have been just a emotional responce to a situation very close to him and its not like he attempted to even go through with it. But the fact that he even considered it is odd though.

 

[EJill34]

...matt wayne (our new story editor, taking over from stan berkowitz)...

Is this the same Matt Wayne who worked with Dwayne McDuffie on "Road To Hell" by any chance?

Wonderful post, by the way. Very informative and it really shed a lot of light onto the process of writing a cartoon like JLU (though I'm not sure there are any other shows out there like JLU).

 

[Revelator]

...this is probably more info than you all want, and probably confuses the issue more than sheds light on it, but that's the way it is....

Certainly not--to me it's probably the most interesting set of paragraphs I've read on this board, since it presents in very juicy detail a process I knew very little about and thought very mysterious. There's far more collaboration involved than I had imagined; I was under the romantic delusion that writing an episode was far more of a solitary job, with the story editors and producers there to vet and offer pointers, approval and occasional revisions. Now I see how much more collaborative the writing process is, and how architectural it is, with the producer and story editors basically responsible for the blueprint later consulted by the scripter. The fact that it's basically a four/five team working closely is very reassurring, since one often hears of how bigger budgeted shows, like live-action sitcoms, are often "written by committee."
I now know this way of working is the industry standard for shows of JLU's size--yet, since you guys are currently engaged in an intricate season-long story arc that demands high amounts of attention and care, I wonder if the degree of producer/story editor control and responsibility was quite as tight back in, say the earlier days of BTAS, which seemed a bit looser. Or maybe I'm just hung up on the disparity between Derek and Burnett-helmed episodes.

 

[TheWonderTwits]

Ok, joining in on the fray... saw it... LOVED IT (I think my favorite to date as it portray's the human element to the whole Meta Human/Hero view of the world)..

Spoiler

Geez! Atom Smasher got his *****! Nice that they got a few good licks in...

Questions:

1. Guess Jonn didn't mind wipe huh, too bad (or will he?)
2. I'm rusty on my DC knowledge, who is Flag and what's his power?

Kudos to Adam Baldwin, btw... great job-as well as the Flash dude
and damn, them previews!!! Billy Batson!!!!! SWEEEEEEEEEEET!

 

[Silly McGooses]

Looking at the screens at the site that can't be named...
I'm glad CC is back, more than I can say, and I know that JLU is in sort of a modern/futuristic world while B:TAS was in a 1930sish film noir world, so it wouldn't be practical for him to wear it....but I REALLY miss his derby.
Yeah, it sounds stupid and picky, but I wish CC had is derby back. It was such a nice little touch. Oh, and his little eyelids behind his glasses that looked like hands on a clock. Guess I'm just a traditionalist...

 

[Knight]

2. I'm rusty on my DC knowledge, who is Flag and what's his power?

!

Rick Flagg jr is a military man. A good soldier who followed in his fathers footsteps and serves his country. Also like his father before him he leads the Suicide Squad (his father lead a team called the Suicide Squad during WW II).

Rick Flagg doesnt have any powers but is a good hand to hand combatant.

 

[Temple Fugate]

I finally watched this episode today, and am so glad I resisted the urge to read this thread until after viewing it. This is one of the five best JLU episodes so far. Every character, new and old, has an edge and distinct personality and plays right into the plot. I literally shouted "NO [bleeping] WAY!" when Flag introduced Clock King. Never expected to see him in JLU. That was such a great surprise to me, as you can already tell. The music was snazzy, the fights were awesome, and the conspiracy gets even more interesting.

This had a very Oceans Eleven vibe to it, which played beautifully against a superhero compound and plainclothes villains. Though John and J'onn were in it, they seemed more like secondary characters to the Task Force, which was a very interesting power play between which side had the protagonists and which side had the antagonists. Ever since "Dark Heart," I've had trouble deciding which side to sympathize with more, even though at heart I know I've got to root for the League. JLU continues to be a wonderful show that knows how to ballance thirteen years of multiple continuities with well-established characters and dozens of intersecting plot devices/threads, while at the same time calling attention to the deeper moral and obligational factors at work in the minds of people on both sides. I don't know what else to say except this is great stuff I value just as highly as the current seasons of Enterprise, 24 and Lost.

To b.t.: Thanks for bringing back Clock King, taking the trouble to bring back Alan Rachins, and also giving him a more fitting role aside from just another random cameo. And thanks for that very informative post about the writing process!

 

[Simpler Simon]

Just wondering if anyone caught what else was in the Watchtower's evidence room besides the Annihilator? I know there was Lex Luthor's power suit in a glass case, and I'm pretty sure there was a display case of Thanagarian axes. Anything else?

 

[Merlin Missy]

Fantastic episode. Just fantastic.

A brief note: also keep in mind that, through Vance's actions, J'onn was ripped in half. Vance endangered J'onn's friends and new "family." The treason is going to be bringing back the sting from the last time someone he trusted betrayed him. It's not a nice reaction, and John was right to talk some sense into him, but it's more than understandable.

McDuffie wrote "The Balance?" *makes little squeaky noises* I'll be in my bunk ...

MM