"WWE RAW" 1-11-10 Talkback (Spoilers)

[The Penguin]

R.I.P.
Tony "Ludvig Borga" Halme​

WWE RAW #868
Monday, January 11, 2010 @ 9 p.m. ET/8 CT on USA Network

GUEST OF IRON
Familiar with being the center of attention inside the ring, global celebrity sensation Mike Tyson is ready to return to the squared circle. Unlike his boxing days, however, “Iron Mike” will serve as the next guest host of Raw.

 

[Wonderwall]

I hate watching a wrestling show when the crowd is dead.

Edit:

Mike Tyson's little threat( no pun intended ) to Hornswaggle was awesome.

 

[SirLemming]

This crowd was atrocious. They chanted "boring" about a half-minute into things and they just generally seemed disinterested in everything. I can't say they were given such a great show to work with, but it seemed like they didn't even want to be there from the very start. (I'm also shocked someone managed to get a "BENOIT" sign on TV, but that's kind of another thing.)

The highlight of the show for me was the Miz's promo. I was amazed when it turned out to be a live promo and it was just really great all around. MVP's end of it wasn't quite as good, but overall I think these guys have a good thing going. If only the crowd cared...

 

[Zyzzybalubah]

The only thing I really liked about this episode was that Orton won the triple threat. Honestly, I was expecting Cena, but Orton won it for a heel vs. heel championship match at the Royal Rumble. The Miz/MVP promo was decent but went way too long IMO. Seriously, I like good promos but there's way too much talking on Raw and the stalling in the main event was horrendous too. We all knew Tyson was going to turn on Jericho but still. Also, can the "Jericho wants to stay on Raw" crusade please end?!? He is a funny guy and a great wrestler but I'd much rather see him feud with somebody on Smackdown or if they're really insistent on having him come to Raw each week, have him make the jump already and no longer have him be on Smackdown.

 

[sag_2002]

The good:

+Miz/MVP promo was epic. Miz had me at his locker room/chicken story, and MVP delivered on his end of the deal as well.

+The #1 contender triple threat was pretty decent, and it brings us an interesting setup at the Rumble, as Orton earns the right to face Sheamus.

+Vince says Bret will never set foot in a WWE ring again. Of course, we know the Hitman will be there next week, and his deal runs through 'Mania, so I doubt that's the end of that little story.

+Santino upsetting Swaggah after the latter boasted that he was going to win the Rumble and that no-one was gonna throw him over the top rope, only to get thrown over the top rope by our Italian Stallion.

The bad:

-Tonight's crowd = FAIL. Totally dead from the outset. I would not be surprised if WWE blacklists Minnesota from their live event list after the way they treated tonight's show.

-Kofi's descent continues, as he loses to Orton yet again. WWE's really been dropping the ball on him since Survivor Series.

Overall: A pretty good one tonight, despite the horrid crowd and Kofi continuing to be depushed back into midcarder status. 3.5/5

 

[ToonFaithful]

The only thing I really liked about this episode was that Orton won the triple threat. Honestly, I was expecting Cena, but Orton won it for a heel vs. heel championship match at the Royal Rumble. The Miz/MVP promo was decent but went way too long IMO. Seriously, I like good promos but there's way too much talking on Raw and the stalling in the main event was horrendous too. We all knew Tyson was going to turn on Jericho but still. Also, can the "Jericho wants to stay on Raw" crusade please end?!? He is a funny guy and a great wrestler but I'd much rather see him feud with somebody on Smackdown or if they're really insistent on having him come to Raw each week, have him make the jump already and no longer have him be on Smackdown.

The official theme song for Royal Rumble is by Fozzy, do the guy some favors WWE....

 

[Zyzzybalubah]

The official theme song for Royal Rumble is by Fozzy, do the guy some favors WWE....

I definitely know what you're saying, but maybe this is part of their way of thanking Jericho for helping them. Having his band have an official song for one of the big four PPVs. It's a nice gesture, but I think the man deserves more too. I mean he (as well as Big Show) made a tag-team pairing many thought wouldn't work out one of the most popular tag-teams of 2009.

On another note, I'd like to give some kind words to Ludvig Borga and his family. I started as a wrestling fan in the early 90s. I remember when Ludvig Borga debuted he was a powerhouse and a very good heel in my opinion. I won't forget how upset my brother and I were when he put an end to Tatanka's undefeated streak! That's a good thing though because it showed what an evil heel he was. I know WrestleCrap inducted him (and I'll admit the environmental gimmick starting out was a little silly) but I felt overall he wasn't really Wrestlecrap. He had a great submission move (it was pretty much like the torture rack) and they booked him like a powerhouse. While the top heels at that time may not have the variation of moves that todays do, IMO they definitely aren't booked as strong as Ludvig Borga, Yokozuna, or Crush were. It's sad Borga was sidelined after Survivor Series with an injury which ended his WWF run. Rest in Peace Tony Halme!

 

[Hobbes829]

it's a loss in pro wrestling. He more than held his own against orton and cena. he looked like he belonged. THAT'S what matters.

 

[Condiment King]

This was a really, really boring Raw to watch. I don't blame the crowd for being dead at all.

Outside of his remarks toward Hornswoggle which were hilarious, I thought the Tyson segments were disappointing. He was kinda awkward (though, at least, enthusiastic which is more than say, Dennis Miller). But I felt like it could have been better. I hated that Tyson was thrown into the WWE title picture at the beginning. They probably should have just kept Tyson to the DX/Jericho stuff and had the show begin with Shawn Michaels two weeks in a row. Having him getting a verbal beatdown from Sheamus cutting a lame promo was really lame. And then Tyson just had to stand there while he was doing it until finally he got in his face. In general, Raws that begin with "oh gosh who is going to get the shot at the next PPV," while a valid and important question, have happened so often in the past 12 months that they are such snoozefests. Cena had a rare good comedy bit with his Mike Tyson's Punch-Out references.

The Divas tournament continues to the delight of no one. We got two divas matches tonight and both weren't very good. This might be the most predictable wrestling tournament of all time, both in match quality and winners.

I can't believe Jericho was on the show again this week. And he ended up losing a "loser leaves town" stipulation for a third time in the past month. What a joke. It's like WWE didn't realize until after the fact that they just took off Raw's best talker and best in-ring technician (Jericho) and desperately had to come up with something to keep him on. If this stuff with the guest hosts allowing him on every week continues, it's a mockery of wrestling stipulations in general. Of course, as soon as the match was announced, everyone knew that it would be a reversal of WrestleMania 14 with Tyson turning on Jericho. Didn't really bother to explain it, but they didn't bother to explain the turn in 1998 either.

I can't believe Santino eliminated Jack Swagger. It's like the WWE has decided to push Drew McIntyre and Sheamus, so why do it with anyone else? I'm not saying this is really bad for Swagger in the long run, this one loss, because it isn't, but things like this where he's essentially cut down by a lower midcarder on a short Raw segment is endemic of Swagger's general malaise since he showed up on the A show.

Man, the crowd really rejected Legacy's promo. For what it's worth, it was pretty poorly delivered and really lame and obvious. "I want to win the Rumble!" When Dibiase talked about him being a movie star, that pretty much ruined any babyface turn in the coming weeks for me. Because he sounded like an idiot saying something so stupid. Rhodes' line about being better than the first Marine was not setting the bar high was the only highlight.

Why the hell was Mark Henry in that Bourne & Henry vs Legacy match? It should have been Primo, even if it would have been the third match between the two teams in like three weeks. Was this just to get Mark Henry on the show? God, when Henry walked over and then fell over the ropes in slow motion when Dibiase held them down, he looked like such an idiot.

Vince's interview was nothing much, but you can't overexpose Bret and have him on every week. And this feud is too important to get overshadowed by the Tyson show. Good decision.

With Orton winning the triple threat, it looks like WWE is doing the exact same thing with the WWE title match at Rumble that it did last year, using it to further along another feud. (Cena vs JBL furthered along JBL vs HBK and Sheamus vs Orton looks to further along the Legacy turmoil.)

 

[Hobbes829]

wait, you didn't get the set up in 98? It's clear as day that Austin and Tyson were in collusion the entire time.

Wait, it's possible to overexpose bret, but not Jericho? Jericho is on 2 shows every week. What an overrated talker. Jericho can be great but the monotone delivery has to stop.

The crowd sucked. I hate when crowds are either dead, or they try to get themselves over. This audience did both. The crowd wasn't dead because of the show. I've seen crowds get into worse shows than this week's.

 

[Mesousa]

Minnesota, why were you so evil last night? It's like they were expecting a hardcore match or something. The show was basically typical Raw in the last couple of weeks.

Or maybe they're just lazy and didn't feel like making noise, which is stypid, because they could've just gone to a Minnesota Wild game (which aired around the same time on Versus, nontheless).

Anyways, Orton vs. Sheamus on the Rumble? This a match the WWE Universe will not care about. Heel vs. heel matches means that the crowd will not care. But it's a welcome, I guess. I wonder, are there actually famous matches involving both opponents as heels?

Oh, note that the Minnesota crowd were actually cheering for Orton in the first segment (seriously, who cheers for a guy who does so many headlocks? Maybe they live on boring people too?).

 

[hobbyfan]

I disagree with Orton-Sheamus at the Rumble. Orton needed illegal help to win the match. That is unacceptable.

The solution:

On next week's show, Orton cuts a promo gloating about his win. Co-hosts Don Johnson & Jon Heder say, not so fast. They saw what happened, and came prepared. Triple threat gets a do-over, and if Legacy interferes again, Rhodes & DiBiase, as well as Orton, are out of the Rumble PPV!

Then, you get the result most of us were expecting, with Cena going over. Putting Orton in the title match does not freshen things up!!!!!

Bottom line is, they have 2 Raws to correct this booking mistake. You cannot have Orton in the title match. If Legacy is not being built up toward another tag feud with DX, this time over the titles, then they should've lost to Henry & Bourne. They've already screwed up any chance of turning DiBiase face to tie into the movie royally (pardon the pun), but then the head writer is a moron and the owner is senile, and.....!

No mention of Tony Halme (Ludwig Borga), as opposed to Dr. Death last week. I guess Chairman Wackjob thinks that because Borga was 15+ years ago, no one remembers him.

Diva tournament----too predictable.

Sucks to be Jack Swagger, losing to Santino Marella, a comedy relief act. If I'm Swag, I'm begging to be moved in the draft.

Mizizzle did a near-perfect JBL mimic, but the promo went too long, just like JBL's. How ironic.

I know it's only the 2nd week in January, but let's give Chris Jericho a special award. Masochist of the Year. The only way he's going to get his wish and be on Raw is if he gets drafted back to Raw. Otherwise, he's just going to take more abuse from DX. And I already used my line about Gewirtz, so......!

If Vince McMahon thinks Bret Hart won't be back, he's mistaken. It's time to retire the heel persona, Vince. After 12+ years, it's played out, and it's time for you to retire.

I can think of about a dozen people on this forum, myself included, of course, who could write this show better than Gewirtz and the other fools.

 

[Hobbes829]

Oh, note that the Minnesota crowd were actually cheering for Orton in the first segment (seriously, who cheers for a guy who does so many headlocks? Maybe they live on boring people too?).

he uses the headlock once or so in a match. is it that different than a punch? He's boring on the mic but not in the ring.

What is the problem that some of you guys have with a headlock. You claim to want wrestling to be realistic and not insult your intelligence yet you go gaga over starship pain, but scoff at a headlock where the guy doesn't sit in it but twists and grinds it in.

 

[Wade Kruse]

I'm getting pretty sick of people who decide that any non-finisher submission is just a "rest hold". Headlocks have a place in wrestling and Orton uses them well.

I really feel like they've failed to really strike when the iron was hot with Kofi. I wouldn't say he's been buried, but he has kind of floundered when it comes to the booking. He really should have won one of these last three matches with Orton, IMO. This feels like the standard pattern in the WWE these days: build up a new star, then chicken out at the last moment.

 

[Spike Mcdougal]

I guess Cena never played Super Punch Out or the new one on the Wii otherwise he probably would have said Sheamus was Aran Ryan but that's probably too easy and considering that Sheamus looks like he hanst been in the sun since the day he was born he may as well be Popinski

 

[Nygma]

I'm getting pretty sick of people who decide that any non-finisher submission is just a "rest hold". Headlocks have a place in wrestling and Orton uses them well.

I disagree with the statement of Orton uses them well. He uses them way too much, plus there's barely, if any innovation in how he uses them. The fact that his restholds last too long, and that he doesn't bring any intensity to it doesn't help much either, neither does his methodical wrestling pace or pedestrian level move set. Not to mention that the e' has indirectly trained the fans to not give a crap about a headlock.
Barely anybody cares about the most generic wrestling hold in the business in this gimmick infested era when it's surrounded by things that are more visually stimulating: Like ladder matches, cage matches, TLC matches, Hell In A Cell matches, Tables matches, Elimination Chambers. You get my point.

Also on another note why doesn't Orton do drop kicks anymore? He probably had the best drop kick in the business when he was still doing it.

I really feel like they've failed to really strike when the iron was hot with Kofi. I wouldn't say he's been buried, but he has kind of floundered when it comes to the booking. He really should have won one of these last three matches with Orton, IMO. This feels like the standard pattern in the WWE these days: build up a new star, then chicken out at the last moment.

Am I the only one who saw this coming? They kept Orton out of title matches to appease those that were sick of him there. So they just have him feud with someone new to also appease to those who wanted new blood. Now the e' probably thinks that no one will mind Orton getting a shot again.

Also was anybody else ticked with Orton after the match when on camera Orton mouthed to Kofi "STUPID, STUPID! You [expletive] up!"? I was rolling my eyes at Orton not being able to stay in kayfabe while out there. If there was a problem with the match save it for the locker room. Don't act like a whiny little primadonna when your out there.
But of course WWE will probably look the other way like they always do every time when Orton does something stupid and doesn't condone himself properly.

 

[Wonderwall]

I thought Orton was acting in character when he was yelling. If he was breaking kayfabe I don't recall ever seeing Kofi screwing something up.

 

[Hobbes829]

it's not wwe that trained people not to care about a head lock, which is a submission hold not a rest hold, it was the crap level of talent that doesn't know how to tell a story. The people do care about headlocks when they are done right. It doesn't matter what you do, it's how you do it. Austin didn't have a lot of moves but he was real enough in the ring that what he did made sense and mattered.

I don't know what you're watching because Orton brings more intensity to his rear chinlock than anyone. He twists and grinds it in. I've seen guys turn beet red.

 

[Nygma]

it's not wwe that trained people not to care about a head lock, which is a submission hold not a rest hold, it was the crap level of talent that doesn't know how to tell a story. The people do care about headlocks when they are done right. It doesn't matter what you do, it's how you do it. Austin didn't have a lot of moves but he was real enough in the ring that what he did made sense and mattered.

It is a submission hold, but it's never the end result for anyone, and thats why nobody cares about it.
Orton takes instruction fine, but is not what many people would call a good story teller. The crowd barely cares when he's wrestling, about him or his opponent (like his and Hunter's boring match at WM 25).
Sure Austin didn't have mind blowing sequences but he made up for that by bringing intensity to his sequences.
Orton just look like he takes his sweet time doing the simplest of moves.

I don't know what you're watching because Orton brings more intensity to his rear chinlock than anyone. He twists and grinds it in. I've seen guys turn beet red.

Everything you said Orton does is the opposite, he just lays on the mat for an extended period of time. Last night being a rare exception.
A better storyteller would be doing stuff like putting your feet on the ropes, or yell at the referee to check him, or yell at his opponent to stay down. Stuff like that where you fill up the dead air, Orton doesn't even do stuff like that. He's probably the most minimalist wrestler to break through to the main event scene.

I thought Orton was acting in character when he was yelling. If he was breaking kayfabe I don't recall ever seeing Kofi screwing something up.

I think Kofi wasn't supposed to turn around, besides why would Orton yell STUPID, STUPID. And then his vulgar language after the match, all in kayfabe?

 

[Wonderwall]

I think Kofi wasn't supposed to turn around, besides why would Orton yell STUPID, STUPID. And then his vulgar language after the match, all in kayfabe?

I've heard Orton yell things in the past so I guess I just assumed he was just yelling for the sake of it. Although I did not hear him swear so maybe that was why I didn't think there was a botch.