"The Flash (2014)" Season One Talkback (Spoilers)

[hobbyfan]

I'm with Peter Paltridge. They waited too long to get to the endgame. We all had to know Barry would fail, but no one saw it coming that Eddie would sacrifice himself, and erase Eobard Thawne. Then, Eddie's corpse goes into the black hole, leaving an opening where Eddie and/or Eobard can return down the road.

I, too, thought we were seeing a set-up for Legends of Tomorrow, and maybe we were. Cold shows up, says nothing. Then again, I was flipping between this and Mets-Cardinals.

As for Jay Garrick? No, I don't think J. W. Shipp will be Garrick. Can't confuse Jay with Henry Allen.

 

[Lighthammer]

In rewatching the episode, I noted that Nora stated that young adult Barry looked like her father.

Could Nora's maiden name be Garrick?

In the comics, her maiden name is Thompson, but I could see this be altered in the same vain they alter other things for simplicity.

I still think J.W.Ship could end up being the speedster too as this is the sort of thing that would pull in a lot of interest. Jay Garrick isn't super well known; especially outside the in crowd of comics. Even in contexts where he is, they often play the "This is the original Flash from another universe" card.

If there was serious consideration to make Diggle into a John Stewart like character and now potentially a Jim Harper like character, I think it's even more of a logical connection to turn Henry Allen into a Jay Garrick like character. If anything, TPTB have proven that they're willing to alter continuity in the name of good suspense and good story; especially if its fun.

As far as setup goes --- I kind of really hope we're not going to spend the first 9 episodes of Flash and/or Arrow setting up Legends. I don't deny that that crossover is going to be a lot of fun, but I feel like they'd prop it up far too much if they spend THAT MUCH time on it. It's going to feel incredibly forced if they do.

Something else randomly standing out to me, I hope they really retool Atom's theme song. The Flash theme song and the Arrow theme song are so moving and vibrant. They make you anticipate things happening. Atom's theme song barely feels like a theme song.

 

[TnAdct1]

I, too, thought we were seeing a set-up for Legends of Tomorrow, and maybe we were. Cold shows up, says nothing. Then again, I was flipping between this and Mets-Cardinals.

There's definitely some set-up for Legends of Tomorrow besides the shot of Captain Cold, as Thawne name drops Rip Hunter, and Hawkgirl in her civilian form is among the characters having a reaction shot to the wormhole.

 

[purplehairedwonder]

There's definitely some set-up for Legends of Tomorrow besides the shot of Captain Cold, as Thawne name drops Rip Hunter, and Hawkgirl in her civilian form is among the characters having a reaction shot to the wormhole.

There was also a shot of the team from the Legends of Tomorrow promo when Barry was running through the Speed Force.

I thought this was an excellent finale. The scene of Barry sitting with his mother as she died was rough. Eddie's fate didn't have much emotional impact for me because I never connected to the character, though I wasn't expecting him to be the death in the episode. I was sure it would be Ronnie after he and Caitlin got married.

Stein was on fire with the one-liners, though.

 

[Doguineta]

Loved this finale, and I loved the show way more than I ever expected in general. Caitlin is still my favorite person ever, seeing her get married to Ronnie was adorable (and that Killer Frost bit got me dang hyped). Stein was the stealth MVP of the episode, so happy to be seeing more of him in Legends. Eddie sacrificing himself was unexpected, but it raised so many questions in my head.

Eddie killing himself would mean Nora, OG Harrison Wells, Tess Morgan, the Multiplex, Girder, Clyde Mardon, Mason Bridge, that guy Thawne killed in ep 3, etc are all alive, and Barry isn't as close to Joe, doesn't know Cait and Cisco, Snart never got his cold gun, and Stein doesn't know any of them? I mean, I'm assuming the wormhole is a consequence of Eddie offing himself, a time paradox ripping the timeline apart.

Oh and Caitlin, super smart doctor extraordinaire, not knowing what "singularity" is is the most unbeliavable thing this series has pulled.

And Peter, iZombie is the bomb. Every week I'm like "this show can't get any better" and it always does. Love it.

 

[Magmaster12]

Overall I'd give this season a B+ it had some good and creative plots but the premise got really stale quickly.

 

[Wounded_Dragon]

I'm wondering if maybe Eddie's killing himself is why Eobard hates Flash so much. Remember that he said the Thawne's were a powerful and successful family. Eddie offing himself, chossing Flash over Eobard, destroys Eobard's whole timeline. Assuming Flash is successful in containing it, that would make Eobard truly homeless (I don't think he's dead, merely stuck outside of time for the moment).

 

[Lighthammer]

There's some early reports of some casting call changes for Season 2 of the Flash.

===============================
CONFIRMED BACK
===============================
- Grant Gustin (Barry Allen)
- Candice Patton (Iris West)
- Danielle Panabaker (Caitlin Snow)
- Carlos Valdes (Cisco Ramon)
- Tom Cavanagh (Harrison Wells)
- Jesse L. Martin (Joe West)

===============================
RUMORED TO BE UPGRADED
===============================
- John Wesley Ship (Henry Allen)

===============================
CONFIRMED GONE AS REGULARS
===============================
- Rick Cosnett (Eddie Thawne)

Also, we got confirmation Ronnie Raymond (Robbie Amell) is going to be separated from the Firestorm Matrix, seemingly killing him. Robbie Amell being notably absent from the Legends trailer especially during Martin Stein's monologue was almost a full on call out to SOMETHING was going to happen.

Also, apparently there has been some leaked casting bills to show Kendra Saunders and Rip Hunter are going to be big characters in the Flash at some point before the season mid finale. Notably, Kendra Saunders is in episode 1 and 2.

 

[reflection01]

I'm wondering if maybe Eddie's killing himself is why Eobard hates Flash so much. Remember that he said the Thawne's were a powerful and successful family. Eddie offing himself, chossing Flash over Eobard, destroys Eobard's whole timeline. Assuming Flash is successful in containing it, that would make Eobard truly homeless (I don't think he's dead, merely stuck outside of time for the moment).

And one has to answer wonder if Eobard was simply a black sheep and if killing off the Thawne legacy did more harm than good.

 

[Lighthammer]

Personally, I feel like this whole thing is much more timey wimey then we realize.

Tom Cavaugh is back as a series regular. Matt Lescher is going to be a recurring guest start and Rick Cosnett will be back as a guest star, but not recurring.

So, we can infer some things from this. Via twitter, its been stated they're going to play a little fast and loose with time travel paradox stuff in an effort to keep things easy to understand for the average viewer.

I'm not sure what I think about this until we see the execution, honestly.

 

[rggkjg1]

I think in the season 2 premiere, Barry will have time traveled. Or will go to a different Earth. Or something. When the black hole was destroying Central City, what did it look like? MAN OF STEEL. And we all know about collateral damage (even though this case it wasn't as direct, but still could argue our heroes were responsible). So keeping that in mind (and people who complain about it - myself included), I'm pretty confident in the first episode of season 2 they're going to find a way to undo the black hole and the collateral damage. If not that, then maybe after stopping the black hole, we'll see the Flash rebuild everything that was damaged/destroyed.

 

[Nightwing26]

I propose this theory: We go back to the original timeline. I'm going to be calling the original timeline the "white circle timeline" and the one that we have watched this season the "red circle timeline."

I'm just going to go ahead and say that the massive black hole exists because it is trying to erase a timeline that doesn't exist. With no Eddie, there should be no Reverse Flash, which means he wasn't there to change the past. This means both of Barry's parents are alive and we will see the white circle Flash.

Let's talk about Tom Cavanagh for a second. We know he'll be back. In the white circle timeline, we know Harrison and Tess Wells built the particle accelerator in the year 2020, and that's when Barry got his powers. If Reverse Flash didn't come back in time and kill the two, they should still be alive then, right? I think we'll see these two mentor Barry in season 2, just like we heard they did in the white circle timeline.

Now moving on to Reverse Flash. He's gone, now. Or is he? He is the Reverse Flash, it wouldn't make sense to never see one of the greatest Flash villains ever again on the show. But how can Eobard Thawne exist? Easy, his ancestor in the original timeline was Malcolm Thawne, aka Barry's twin Brother, aka Cobalt Blue. At least, this is just a theory... My friends and I just wanted to see Cobalt Blue at some point. I guess this is less theory, and more @i want this."

Anyways, we can resolve a lot with this timeline. Cisco can have become The Vibe by now. Caitlin will have become Killer Frost. Maybe in the white circle timeline, Ronnie isn't Firestorm. Dr. Stein and Jason Rusch are. Listen, if it's established that Ronnie died due to the whole Firestorm project, then it would make sense for Caitlin to hate Firestorm and become a villain. In addition, as we saw in the Legends of Tomorrow trailer, Dr. Stein says he is only one half of Firestorm. Every one is assuming Ronnie is dead, and that is the reason. I want to say, yes that is true, but I think there's more to it. For the trailer, they didn't want us to see Franz Drameh's character, "Jay Jackson." Jay Jackson may actually be Jason Rusch, who is being recasted (we've seen this with Sara Lance before...). In-universe, the explanation may just be that Jason was not on-time to this big meeting between "legends." Out-of-universe, again, they just didn't want to spoil the new timeline. Another character in this show who may have been changed: Hawkgirl. At he end of The Flash, she literally did nothing as everything was ending. Just stood and watched... Didn't try to fly at all... What if she didn't have her wings at this point, wasn't aware of her past live yet? In the white circle timeline, with the events of all the shows taking place in 2020 instead of 2014 would make that easier.

In the Arrow finale, we just assumed The Atom did not die, and instead shrunk. I say, he did die. In the white circle timeline, he doesn't die, and instead become The Atom we know he will be. Speaking of Arrow, I think the white circle should affect their show, too. The season 3 finale felt very much like a series finale, which was intentional, and with all this talk of a light-hearted season 4... What if the show came back as Green Arrow? In the red circle timeline, with the whole "Roy Harper is The Arrow but he's dead now" thing, The Arrow can't exist. And calling himself the Green Arrow won't change that. We were promised a journey to see Ollie become the Green Arrow. We got to see an Oliver who became a hero, and hen retired happily. We got to see Ollie happy, which is one part of the way to him becoming Green Arrow, but not all the way. Maybe we needed to be following a different Oliver? Maybe Ra's was defeated early enough so that Ollie's identity wasn't revealed to Captain Lance. I also say, what if since the moment Oliver returned from Lian Yu, he was actually more wise-cracking Oliver than brooding Oliver; what if he was never The Vigilante, never The Hood, never The Arrow, but only Green Arrow?

Anyways, there probably won't be any other big changes there: Malcolm is likely still Ra's, Thea is probably Speedy (or maybe even Arrowette or Artemis), Roy is probably off on his own for whatever reason, Diggle will be more open to putting on a mask in this timeline, etc. the only other big difference, is Sara. It doesn't make sense for a decaying corpse to just be completely okay after a dip in the Lazarus Pit. It's been speculated Rip Hunter and time travel was involved. I propose, in the white circle timeline, right after Sara died, Nyssa immediately resurrected her. I think Nyssa and Sara may both join Team Arrow as well.

In the LoT trailer, we see Ollie and Barry side-by-side, or well, more specifically, The Arrow and The Flash (red circle). Just like before, I think since the scenes was shot specifically for the trailer and not the show (although they can reuse scenes), that was just placeholders. They likely didn't want to spoil the events of Green Arrow and The Flash's second season by debuting the new costumes. Those two could possibly end up being Green Arrow and The Flash (white circle), instead.

Also, the white circle timeline can make it easier to connect to the Titans (or Blackbirds?), Supergirl, and even Constantine.

That's all I got right now, keep in mind this is all just a theory I came up with to make things easier for me to explain to myself and my friends what may possibly happen in season 4 and season 2 of Arrow and The Flash, respectively. And Legends of Tomorrow, can't forget that.

 

[Lighthammer]

First off, let me say I think the way you headed this thread off is a fun way to do it. It was very inviting the way you did it. Good on you.

Beyond that, TPTB (Guggenheim, Berlanti and others) have been pretty clear on the intent herein: They're going to keep the time paradoxes to a minimum.

The initial wormhole we'll have going into the start of Season 2 is going to primary be a tool to allow more interesting things to happen that doesn't take a seemingly convoluted time paradox to explain. Essentially if it fell from the sky (aka the Wormhole), it's easier to claim fair game.

Recently, Simon Pegg wrote a fairly damning blog post that largely sums up why shows like Arrow and Flash are afraid to use giant time paradoxes or temporal causality: it's a dumbing down of US / mainstream culture where they're not readily willing to exercise brain power to understand a deeply complex plot. Society as a whole, according to Pegg (and I largely agree) are more interested in shows that gives them "feels" more so then shows that make them think.

Since this came from Simon Pegg, let's remind ourselves that the geeky and nerdy persons LOVE Enterprise's Temporal War story line. The MAJORITY of viewers were turned off by it. This wasn't anywhere close to the reasons the series ended, but it's a strong lesson to consider. Even in X-Men: Days of Future Past, they made it a strong point to do the movie in a way where the time travel plot wasn't really visible outside of being key plot progression points. They certainly didn't act as any kind of Deus Ex Machina plot twist.

Heck, lets take a step back and remind ourselves that one of the biggest reasons for Flash's success is because the series has a lot of heart; it goes right for the feels. It creates an analog for viewers to really get attached to the characters.

I think it's best right now assuming we're inside a butterfly paradox and what has happened is now in the past. "White Circle" Flash no longer exists in our reality and we're moving forward from that point.

If we want to exercise our geek, I feel the most productive way to do that just now is to consider what possibilities the wormhole is going to give us as we peer into other realities. If TPTB decide to go more into temporal paradoxes, we should rejoice when they take that substantial step.

 

[Lighthammer]

Onto other topics related to the end and possibly the beginning of next season, something kind of has me unsettled in general about whats going:

I don't like the idea how we're already getting to the plot element of multiverse.

It seems like every show uses this when it's about to spin down.

The most notable examples of this that spring to mind are: X-Men: The Animated Series (1990s), Spiderman (1990s) and more recently, Ultimate Spiderman.

These sorts of situations can be fun --- for a while; but overused (and frankly, underused) makes it very banal, very fast. I hope we're not going down this route.

I hope we have a little bit of fun with this arch and quickly put it to bed.

 

[Frontier]

Sometimes even the smallest change or alteration can make the biggest difference: