The Degradation of Pro Wrestling

[Hobbes829]

What do you mean, exactly? What schools are you talking about? Who's training these people? What makes you think that they are not qualified to train people to wrestle? What qualifies as a wrestler to you? Were you a wrestler?


While these were questions in another thread, i do find this to be an interesting topic in it's own right.

There are wrestling schools out there being run by people that never did anything in the business and don't really understand how it works. They've never really been anywhere and gotten over, and they don't have enough experience to have a solid grasp of it. So their students pick up bad habits that are hard to break. They haven't truely grasped the fundamentals.

No, i've never been a wrestler, but i know a few.

Plus, listening to a huge number of interviews and reading a lot on the subject, this topic comes up again and again with those people saying the same thing. Raven talks about how he goes to indie shows and hears about guys being trained by nobodies.

There are qualified instructors out there like the trainers at FCW, Danny Davis, Harley Race and Jodi Hamilton. All had great careers. There are probably a few others.

 

[Djm912]

You still haven't named anyone that is 'degrading' "the business", as you put it.

Which is really no different from Bitter Wrestling Old Guy #803 who does a grumpy old man interview about "these kids nowadays who don't know how to work" without really naming anybody, and just coming off as someone who is just stuck in the past and can't let go.

 

[Jin Kazama]

If you're going off veterans, there's a huge difference in how you got over then, and how you get over now.

The old days of the territories were just as much about who you knew as it was about how good you were. Countless times back then had someone been given a big push because they were "in" with the booker (or even related some times). Or even, in the cases of wrestlers being bookers, putting themselves on top. You don't have that today, in the age of writers and being, more or less, a one-promotion show. You can be a favorite of the writers, but it's a lot harder than "I traveled with (insert name here) and like him, so I'm putting him on top of the card."

That in mind, while the older wresters have more experience and may know a little more in-ring, it's a much different game now. You'd almost need someone like Shawn Michaels to re-open his school, since he's in a prominent role now, and knows what the business is like right now.

 

[Hobbes829]

well it makes a lot of sense. Substandard training gets substandard talent. Is it any different from going to a 3rd world country and getting a medical degree, then wanting to practice here? Would you trust that doctor? Credentials mean something.

I personally don't know any teachers by names, but i wouldn't generalize all of the men that i named and call them bitter.

Verne Gagne has a list of talent that he trained that are a who's who of wrestling, so does stu hart.

Jin, there's a difference between getting over and getting a spot.

 

[Jin Kazama]

Jin, there's a difference between getting over and getting a spot.

Yeah, but you've got a better chance of getting over if you're given a spot. You can put on amazing matches every week, but unless the company sees something in you, and don't invest in you, than you'll go nowhere. Look at people like Austin. WCW didn't see anything in him, and didn't really promote him. But WWE saw what he could do, invested in him, and he was huge. It's a little bit from A and a little bit from B.

But, back on the topic of training, you mention both Stu and Verne, and both of them, while in-ring talent, were also big internally as well. So they know what's needed overall, more than just what someone needs to do in-ring. Hence, why the people they train go places. They get a better handle on the business overall.

I do think that on-the-job should play a role, too. You don't just jump from a school to a World title. Once you get there, you need to gauge what that company needs and looks for, and aim for that. Not exacly a carbon copy, but something in that vein.

 

[Hobbes829]

Yeah, but you've got a better chance of getting over if you're given a spot. You can put on amazing matches every week, but unless the company sees something in you, and don't invest in you, than you'll go nowhere. Look at people like Austin. WCW didn't see anything in him, and didn't really promote him. But WWE saw what he could do, invested in him, and he was huge. It's a little bit from A and a little bit from B.

But, back on the topic of training, you mention both Stu and Verne, and both of them, while in-ring talent, were also big internally as well. So they know what's needed overall, more than just what someone needs to do in-ring. Hence, why the people they train go places. They get a better handle on the business overall.

I do think that on-the-job should play a role, too. You don't just jump from a school to a World title. Once you get there, you need to gauge what that company needs and looks for, and aim for that. Not exacly a carbon copy, but something in that vein.

i fully agree. I'm not saying we would have amazing talent today, but the overall level of ability would be better and part of being a good trainer is weeding out guys that don't belong. From the look of some indie shows either these guys have no training, or the guy training them essentially just took their money.

Habits are formed early on, and it's hard to break bad ones.

I do think another thing that's bad for business is bad promoters. Guys that don't know the first thing about putting on a wrestling show and drawing people into the building. Everyone needs practice to get good, and unfortunately the indies are a less than ideal place to get experience.

The rules of the lockeroom and the structure of the companies are different but you can learn those when you get there. The fundamentals don't change though.

 

[Tapout]

I do think another thing that's bad for business is bad promoters. Guys that don't know the first thing about putting on a wrestling show and drawing people into the building. Everyone needs practice to get good, and unfortunately the indies are a less than ideal place to get experience.

In a perfect world they'd be getting the training they need before they perform in front of any people, but aren't the indies a better place than in front of an audience of four million every Monday night?

 

[Hobbes829]

In a perfect world they'd be getting the training they need before they perform in front of any people, but aren't the indies a better place than in front of an audience of four million every Monday night?

it's the difference between med school and being an actual doctor in a hospital with actual patients. There's a world of difference. They can give you the fundamentals but to put it all together you need experience in front of an audience. You can take writing classes and read a lot of good books on the art of writing but you need experience to become good. Wrestling's no different.

Indies are a good place to learn and mess up but they don't run that often.

 

[Wade Kruse]

The indies are full of good talent, or a least a solid amount of the major ones(ROH, PWG, CHIKARA, SHIMMER, Dragon Gate, etc.), I'm not worried about the future of pro wrestling. Plenty of young guys coming up in the business who are well-trained and improve constantly. Having an old-timer as a trainer is an advantage, but it's not absolutely needed either.

 

[PTurkey]

Are awful wrestling schools and the "wrestlers" they produce degrading pro wrestling? About as much as bad internet fanfiction is degrading literature. Which is to say, "no."

Every art has artists who absolutely suck and will never "make it." They do it as a hobby, for something to do during their free time, whatever. These people's work will have no overall impact on the overall landscape. They're easily ignored. If they happen to get lucky and their awful work does spawn offspring in the form of a school or promotion or whatever, if it is truly bad, it will die off eventually. CZW and IWA-Mid South, the two main proponents of Deathmatch wrestling earlier this decade, are punchlines now. The cream, the actual good wrestlers with real training and skill, will eventually rise to the top, defining and evolving the art form.

 

[Hobbes829]

Look at the level of talent that was around in the 80s and look at the talent that's around now and tell me with a straight face that all's well.

Hogan and Flair had a near endless list of hall of fame talent to work with and draw with. Now, they have to recycle feuds endlessly because there isn't enough main event talent depth to any roster.

I think the bad med school analogy is more akin to this situation than fanfic. Also, there is a lot of bad art out these days.

I would never say the indies are full of good talent. It depends how you define it. Even if they have potential, the fact is that they don't have the experience because it's rare for anyone on the indies to get consistent work. The reason the territories spawned so much great talent was because there were over 30 places to work, all with different styles, all with tv shows, all made the talent work at least 4 times a week in front of crowds, often in the same towns. Plus, you had a bunch of vets to learn from and work with.

Guys that get really good at all facets of the business are rare.

While those nothings won't amount to much there could be more good talent out there if there were more places to work and there was better training.

 

[Wade Kruse]

Most of the major indy stars actually do work 3-4 feds at once, plus Japan tours as well, so it's not like these guys are just wrestling a few times a month. Plus, a lot of te major indies work different styles, letting them work a variety of shows. ROH for example is the more sportlike kind of show, while CHIKARA is more outlandish and cartoony, while PWG is somewhere in the middle, while Dragon Gate is high-energy, and so on. It's not as nice of setup as the territories, but it's not bad either. Unfortunately ROH is the only major American indy that really allows wrestlers to get any kind of TV experience, like learning to stage matches for the TV camera setups and working within TV timeframes and so on. So yeah, it's not completely ideal, but I don't really see the doom of professional wrestling coming anytime soon. Honestly, there's still a LOT of great wrestlers out there and there's still a LOT of great matches being performed, both in the mainstream and in the indy scene.

The 80s had just as much crap, really. I actually think I CAN tell you with a straight face that the field of talent isn't really any worse at all. The midcard in the modern era is a lot more solid than I think it's ever been, especially. Though womens and tag wrestling has suffered greatly in the mainstream, some fantastic stuff for both can still be found outside of the WWE.

 

[krazymed]

The stars of today are bigger, stronger, faster. They have six-packs instead of beer guts. I'd say things are a little better than the 80s. At least we aren't getting the Gooker...never mind.

Is there a formal pro wrestling hall of fame? I have never heard of one. I'd like to say "hall of fame" talent and actually have it mean something.

 

[Wade Kruse]

There's the Observer Hall of Fame, which is probably the best we've got. The WWE one is based around who's in good standing with Vince and who's willing to do publicity for him, with merit coming in second.

 

[entransify]

The WWE one is based around who's in good standing with Vince and who's willing to do publicity for him, with merit coming in second.

Basically. That's why Owen Hart will never be inducted. Or Randy Savage.

 

[TMC1982]

Basically. That's why Owen Hart will never be inducted. Or Randy Savage.

Yeah, Owen's wife pretty much blames Vince McMahon and company for her husband's accidential death. Then again, Bret Hart was inducted in the Hall of Fame so there may still be a slight possibility that Owen will eventually be inducted too.

 

[Hobbes829]

but 80s guys came in all sorts of shapes and sizes, you had variety. You had smaller guys like bret hart and the rock and roll express, tall and lanky like Jake Roberts, big guys like orndorff and hogan, and giants like Andre. Even fat guys like Adrian Adonis and Playboy Buddy Rose while fat could move around the ring.

Look at all the talent in the 80s:
WCCW - the von erichs, freebirds, Ice Man King Parsons, the Fantastics
AWA - Nick Bockwinkle, Scott Hall, Curt Hennig, The Rockers, Zbyszko
WWF - Hogan, Steamboat, Piper, Orndorff, Andre, Heenan, Savage, the Hart Foundation, the British Bulldogs, Muraco, Funk, Rude, the Killer Bees
JCP -Flair, Rock and Roll Express, the 4 Horsemen, Barry Windham, Dusty Rhodes, Magnum TA, The Road Warriors
Mid South - DiBiase, JYD, Terry Taylor, Midnight Express
Memphis - Lawler, Dundee

Of course they had their crappy talent, but the level of great talent surpasses todays both in ring and on the mic

I'm not saying pro wrestling's dead, but it sure isn't where it should be.

I know how the indies work but it's rare that guys get full time experience which i would say is about 100 matches a year. Actually that comes from Raven, but i think he makes a good point. Also, most of the guys work with people around their experience level instead of vets.

 

[AnimationX]

There's the Observer Hall of Fame, which is probably the best we've got. The WWE one is based around who's in good standing with Vince and who's willing to do publicity for him, with merit coming in second.

www.pwhf.org is the best wrestling HOF I have ever seen. I have not been a fan for years but I do pop into this website to see who of my childhood favorites have made it into the hall. WWE and Wrestling Observer's HOF's are crap.

 

[Robin2099]

Yeah, Owen's wife pretty much blames Vince McMahon and company for her husband's accidential death. Then again, Bret Hart was inducted in the Hall of Fame so there may still be a slight possibility that Owen will eventually be inducted too.

Bret said that they contacted him about inducting Owen, and that he would like to do it. But, yeah the Martha factor will not allow it to happen. Can't really say I blame her though.