Please explain this to me.

[Sephlock]

The Job thing -as i call it ,- has particularly stuck in my mind, because the way God acts in it reminds me of the way I was when I was about ten. Frankly, I would be more inclined to believe that if there is a God in the traditional sense, he/she/it created life to see how it worked, and then proceeded to mess with it like a child dissecting an insect, not with any particular malice, but not with any particular kindness either.

AKA "Gee, I wonder what would happen if I..."
Arguably the most dangerous phrase in the English language.

(I guess I should, at this point, declare my particular position, as seems to be the trend in this thread; I'm an agnostic. For those of you that don't know, that means I worry about the existance of God. In a purely practical sense, it means that I am too lazy to worship but too cowardly to risk outright disbelief. .)

This is my take on the whole Job saga;

Job: God r0xx0rz j00, & virtue r0xx0rz j00r b0xx0rz!

God: *Grants Job admin status*

Satan: Psst, bet if you screwed him over, he wouldn't like you any more.

God: Nuh uh

Satan: Uh huh

God: Nuh uh

Satan: Uh huh!

God: Nuh uh, and I'll PROVE it! *screws over Job*

Job, now sans admin status and restricted to one post a day:
I hate you!

God: Poop.

Job: Poop.

Satan: HAW HAW!

Originally posted by DR. BELCH

Again, that's very cut-and-dry. It seems to logically follow that if you suffer, it's because you sinned. However, Job was a good and holy man who had everything taken away from him basically because God and the Devil had a bet going...little more, really, than glorified gambling, using a human being as a poker chip. And this is a God who loves us. That story never really sat well with me.

 

[Lucky Bob]

Uh-uh! God didn't hurt Job! Recall that Satan did! And by the way, has anyone noticed that Job's condition was temporary, and he came out a better man than when he started? He learned a valuable lesson, that exists to this day:

God has a plan.

 

[Sephlock]

Originally posted by luckybob1985


The thing is, God would never send His children to hell. Of course, you've got to become one, first. Here's the problem, man is constantly in submission to some authority. there is the authority of sin, and the authority of God. You have to choose, there is no gray area. Like you have to be a citizen of some country. The difference is, these two authorities are at war, and only one of them will win in the end. Which side would you rather be on?

First of all, bob, I just wanted to express my gratitude towards you for explaining instead of flaming. I know it isn't always easy, and I do respect you for that.

That said; What is your stance on the status of non-Christians like Gandhi? Is Plato in hell? Aristotle? Socrates?

The reason I ask is because some say that anyone who isn't Christian goes to hell, and some even say that if you aren't a member of their specific denomination t hen you are going to hell, Christian or not.

As you might imagine, this is a notion which bothers me, especially since it reminds me of this one Dilbert comic;

In it, Dilbert and his boss are discussing a prize to be awarded to the employee of the month. The prize happens to be a parking space.

-As I am sure you are aware, getting a parking space close to the building in which you work is considered a plus-

The boss says that the parking space in question will be further away than those spaces reserved for the management, and Dilbert says "Thats like saying that the best Employee is not as good as the worst manager."

Since when did God ever do that in the Bible?

It was a reference to the lake of fire. The 'hunting down' part was an attempt to make an analogy with the inescapable and eternal torment should you not submit to God.

They are. You should love and respect God because hey, He's giving you a way out of sin, here! Sin ultimately leads to destruction. However, if you don't want to, then any punishment you recieve, you've brought on yourself.

But my point is that if he is wielding a cudgel in one hand, its kind of hard to love him, and far more likely that one would *fear* him.

Adultation due to admiration and affection and adultation due to fear and guilt are two very different things, and I feel that in creating a place like hell, God is sending the message that you do things his way 'or else'.

The element of choice isn't even there, because if you truly believe that Hell exists, you'd have to be insane to not worship God.

No one in their right mind would deliberately choose eternal pain over eternal pleasure; even the lowest order of animals have *that* much sense.

Its a sort of catch 22; if you believe in God, in the biblical sense, then you believe in hell, and therefore you would of course worship God. However, if you did NOT believe in God, or if you were agnostic, or of some different religion/demonination, or if you are an aboringinee that hasn't even HEARD of God, then you are going to hell by default.

Its the 'by default' thing that gets me.

I mean, is it not unreasonable to provide a reason for belief? Honestly now, to me, the Bible is just a book. I do not understand why it is that I should believe it is anything more just because someone says I should.

I understand that priests and such carry a special authority under the Church, but again, its a catch 22; If I am a Christian, I will tend to believe in a priest's authority and therefore believe in the Bible, but if I am not, then the priest is just some guy, and its far too easy for 'some guy' to lie to me and cause me to waste my whole life, for whatever reason, be it malicious or simply misguided.

One could say -from a Christian standpoint,- that charlatins and Priests say the same things, its just that the Christian belief is 'real'. However, even if that were so, no one would ever *know* that unless they already believed. They would learn this only after the fact.

And since, looking from the outside in, Christianity is 'just another religion,' to convert to it -or any religion- blindly is not so much an act of faith as it is an act of stupidity.

*and before anyone says anything about the above, let me explain; If the religions in question look the same to me, an outsider, then logically my choice would be random, since there is no objective criterion with which to judge them; anything I felt I knew for a fact I would only know for a fact *AFTER* I joined.

Therefore, if I *DID* stumble upon the one true religion, it would be by pure luck, not any sort of faith or guidance.

That depresses me. A lot. Especially since I am not the lucky sort, and there are a WHOLE LOT of religions out there.

I should note that in some cases, some sort of tangible phenomena manifests itself and causes someone to convert, but I (and many others) have yet to experience such a thing. My question is; why? I look around every day for such things, and yet... nothing.

Mmm, this post went from 'reply' to 'philosophical outpouring and desperate cry for... something.'

 

[Sephlock]

Originally posted by Livewire

The Bible did not come from man’s mind but from God’s. God just used men to write it. 2 Timothy 3:16-17-“All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.” The Bible is God’s law.


What about the different translations of the Bible?
Personally, I've always felt that if you wanted to read the *real* bible you'd have to learn latin, or maybe hebrew. Or arabic -yes, arabic.-

http://www.chick.com/search/subject...reate[d]&HTMLQueryForm=/search/&Action=Search


Now on to Wiccannism. God loves everyone. He doesn’t hate Wiccan’s, and neither do I. But the Bible says to worship God and him only, which is why we Christians disagree with what they practice. We’re not supposed to worship what God created- sun, stars, earth, water, etc.-we’re supposed to worship God, the Creator, which is exactly what Romans 1:25 says- “They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshipped and served created things rather than the Creator--who is forever praised. Amen.”

Bleh, I can't find the URL of that one part of the Chick.com site that points out something that I find very interesting; The whole thing with the Pope and that Mary statue. Isn't that Idoltary?


And for the people who questioned reality of the occult and demons, let me say that all that stuff is very real. The devil and his demons are real, just like angels are. It’s no fantasy. A fight between evil and virtue is going on- a fight that we can’t see with human eyes. But as a Christian, I have power over this unseen evil. Ephesians 6:12- “For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.”

Jesus drove out demons. Matthew 18: 16- “When evening came, many who were demon-possessed were brought to Him, and He drove out the spirits with a word and healed all the sick.” That’s why I have nothing to fear. God gave every Christian dominion over them as well.


Ok now, before I say anything else, I just want you to know that I have nothing against the Pope, nor do I particularly associate him with born again Christians, its just that he is well known and therefore serves as an excellent source of real world examples.

That said; The Pope tried *and failed* to excocise a demon. A friend of mine claims that this happened multiple times, though I am not sure of that.


The devil is a liar, plain and simple. John 8:44- “……He[the devil] was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.” He wants to deceive people and steer them away from the truth. The Bible warns us about this. 1Timothy 4:1- “The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.”


Such as?


This doesn’t have to be the case for anyone. There is a way not to be deceived by the devil. James4:7-“Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.”

There’s a reason I’m telling everyone all this. As Christians, God wants us to witness. Like I said before, you have a right to believe what I say and you have a right not to believe what I say. But if I said nothing and remained silent, I wouldn’t be doing what all Christians are called to do- to spread the Gospel, and to tell all people about the wonderful Jesus whom I serve. I want to share with everyone the cause of my joy and happiness. [/QUOTE]

I will say one thing; I am glad that you added that last part. Too many people don't realize the inherent hypocracy in being Christian and believing that stuff, and yet refusing to do what you just did (preferably in the manner in which you did it.)

 

[Sephlock]

Originally posted by luckybob1985
Uh-uh! God didn't hurt Job! Recall that Satan did! And by the way, has anyone noticed that Job's condition was temporary, and he came out a better man than when he started? He learned a valuable lesson, that exists to this day:

God has a plan.

All God did is let Satan do his dirty work. An old saying comes to mind; "All that is required for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing."

As for the plan; what is it? Job was already faithful and 'god fearing'.

 

[Stardust]

That comic was so corny, but it was a good laugh. I feel like this thread's on a fine line here, but here's my stance: I'm a Christian, too, but don't practice Christianity (well, I take the religion lightly). I question my belief all the time, and there are a lot of things in churches I've been to that disappoint me, like all these cliques and everything. My aunt's Catholic now because she goes to church with her husband and my grandmom's Presbyterian and they're totally devout.

I believe there is a God, but I took a World Religions class to broaden my outlook on religion and you know what? that was the coolest course i've taken this semester. My teacher said if you use the Bible as a history book, you'll be in trouble. That's true. Take the Bible lightly because there are so many contradictions in the Bible (he gave us some examples but I have long since threw out my notes becuase i got really fed up with the semester, especially since the final was on Islam and the Bahai Faith, two VERY LONG religions) and (i didn't know this) there are popes or whatevers that meet each year to edit the Bible - they take stuff away from it and everything, so (like the comic said: King James is the ONLY Bible Satan didn't mess with???) there really is no correct version of the Bible.

That article talking about people actually believing Harry Potter is real was a funny article. And it's good to see that there are people fully devoted to whatever religion they practice. It's refreshing cuz at school, these two girls are devout Christians and it's nice becuase everyone else is like, sex, drugs, alcohol). Most of my friends can't believe I haven't "hooked up" with any guys yet. Anyway, I digress. There's my two cents and I hope I haven't stepped on anyone's shoes.

 

[Lucky Bob]

Originally posted by Sephlock


All God did is let Satan do his dirty work. An old saying comes to mind; "All that is required for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing."

As for the plan; what is it? Job was already faithful and 'god fearing'.

But he was also quite self-righteous. Just read his quotes.

 

[The Guitar Slayer]

Fascinating discussion, but I echo The Mad Hatter's concerns, so let's be careful as we walk the line.

In reference to the Job thing, here's how it goes according to my interpretation of the story:

Job is a good guy with a bunch of stuff and kids that are very much loved by him. He worships the Lord with all his heart, soul, mind and strength. Job would be considered "blessed."

Satan basically makes a bet with God. "If Job didn't have all this nice stuff, he'd turn his back on you in a heartbeat." God disagrees, but Satan persists. Finally, God, to prove Job's virtue, tells Satan to take his best shot. God allows Satan to torment Job.

Job's children are killed, his possessions destroyed, and his good health taken. But he still worships the Lord with all his heart, soul, mind, and strength. His wife tells him just to curse the Lord and die; he's living a pretty dismal existence. Job still refuses. God comes in, having proven Satan wrong, and restores Job's possessions, children, and health. Satan slinks off, tail between legs. Job praises God, and he lives happily ever after.


Catholic researchers have come to the conclusion that Job's story is most likely a FOLKTALE, a FABLE....the story might not be true, but it delivers a message, and that's the part that really counts. Stories like this (Judith, Creation) are not interpreted literally by Catholics, but as tales that were introduced to an illiterate audience. They were meant to be easy to remember and understand. The actual events might not have happened, but the message is true.

As for those comics....I've never seen them in a Catholic church. I have, however, seen a whole series of them in a Baptist church. These Baptists that I have in my area are literalists...black and white, and that's it. I do know that not all Baptist churches agree with this view. Some are contextualists, like the Catholic churches.

There are 2 other stories that I know of...they also piss me off to no end. It kind of makes my existence bleak and my eventual end not looking too good. These, to me, are very close-minded.

My overall view of religion is this: it depends on your perception. Nobody is wrong. God, Allah, Yahweh, et. al, are the same all powerful being. They appear to different types of people in different ways, ways that the people can understand. Vishnu, Buddha....if you look at all of them, the Golden rule is the same. In the words of the Judeo-Christian faith: do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

In the original Wizard of Oz book, the Wizard appeared to the protagonists as different things/people to appeal to what they expected for a wizard. He got them to follow and do a greater good. Substitute "god" for "wizard," and that's my view.

 

[Anyone00]

Nobody is wrong.

Person A has the view Person B's views are wrong.

Since "Nobody is wrong" Person B's views must be right.
Since "Nobody is wrong" Person A's view that Person B's views are wrong must be right.



Or you could be the type that see the Universe and every thing in it as an inherent contradictions.


If you think I'm twisting your words be a bit more precise.

 

[G. Wen]

When God said told His children not to practice withcraft, His intentions were to protect them. Witchcraft is hard to master, and potentially destructive, even if the intentions were intended for good. God created that law to protect us, He did not create that law to give people an oppertunity to criticize pieces of literature that they find offending.
In 1 Cor., Paul states that it is fine to eat food sacrificed to idols because idols don't exist, and therefore eating food sacrificed to idols is the equalvalent to eating food sacrificed to nothing. Likewise, it is fine to read Harry Potter books because the characters in Harry Potter don't exist, and the acts they commit didn't happen, so there is nothing wrong w/ Harry Potter books.
The story of Job is not about God gambling w/ the devil or that bad things will turn out good later in life if you are good, but about bad things happening to good people. That's right, bad things happen to good people, and the Bible states it in the book of Job. God didn't promise us a life of sunshine, He only promised us that He will never abandon us, and He will be there w/ us even when everyone else has abandoned us because the hell we go through is too much for them to bear.
I don't believe it's God's way or Hell. I believe the requirements to get into heaven is more complicated that that, and that the Bible just gave a gloss overview. God is about love, and it is very unloving to just cast people to Hell w/o second thoughts. Like Paul said, it's all about faith, hope, and love, with love being the greatest.
Furthermore, not all Christians will go to heaven. I don't believe people who use the Bible for their own egocentric ends (i.e. racist religious groups) are going to Heaven. Likewise, I don't believe that God approves people using His words as a means to condemn other religions (i.e. the Wiccan religion). People who do this kind of thing are feeding their own egos, making themselves feel better because they are w/ the right "religion".

 

[The Guitar Slayer]

Originally posted by Anyone00


Person A has the view Person B's views are wrong.

Since "Nobody is wrong" Person B's views must be right.
Since "Nobody is wrong" Person A's view that Person B's views are wrong must be right.



Or you could be the type that see the Universe and every thing in it as an inherent contradictions.


If you think I'm twisting your words be a bit more precise.

Okay. Let me clarify my statement.

Christians think their interpretation of God is right. They say that everybody else is wrong...but meanwhile on the other side of the world, Buddhists are saying the same thing about Christianity. My view on the subject of "who's right" is this: nobody. Nobody has a completely perfect, exact view of what 'God' is. Each religion contains pieces of the puzzle, but because of our own predjudices against that religion (and nobody likes being wrong), the picture of God is never complete.

I think that religion is an opinion. I can say your 'opinion' is wrong, but that's kind of close-minded. I can say, however, that my 'opinion' differs from yours. We agree to disagree. That's how the A-B thing works.

I don't believe the Universe contradicts itself. I just think whatever all-powerful being that is out there has one heck of a sense of humor.


I read earlier about someone mentioning Pope worshipping Mary. If I may, I'd like to explain the whole thing. Mary, the Virgin Mother of Christ, is revered by the Catholic faith for being what she is. She was a 15, 16 year old kid that said yes to God. Like the saints, she made a big sacrfice. Catholics don't worship the saints or Mary; they have a lot of respect for them. Catholics don't pray to them as a god, but as intermediaries between themselves and God. Back before Vatican II, God was this big scary dude who would smote you down in a heartbeat. Mary and the saints were an intermediary of those intimidated by that portrayl. Catholics would ask the saints and Mary for guidance and help. Forgiveness of sins is strictly God's department, however. That's why confession had such a stigma. Nowadays, God has better p.r., and people feel more comfortable praying directly to him. Some do pray to their 'favorite' saint. The 'favorite' saint tends to be the one you want to model your life after or has a very encouraging story.

The statue thing is not meant to be an idol. Rather, it is to keep you focused on who you are asking for help. Humans are very visual, and the statue is meant for an aid. You are asking for help from the soul/spirit of the departed saint, not the statue. Same thing goes with a statue of Jesus; pray to Him, not the stone object. The chunk of stone won't help you.

As for the exorcism bit, it is true that the Pope failed. But that shows you how powerful Satan is; he won't even listen to God's representative on earth. The effectiveness is affected by how much the person that is possessed wants to be de-possessed. If the parents are Catholic, but the kid is a willing disciple of Satan, then a Catholic priest of any level cannot force the demon out.

I know some you are probably wondering where I get this information. I attend a Catholic school and have read parts of the Catholic catechism as part of the theology requirements...so I'm not making this up off the top of my head.

 

[Spooky05]

the comic = something that, had i it printed, i would burn with the candles a wicca friend gave me for christmas last year.

i go to a baptist church. i was raised in said church. i was saved when i was 6 years old, and vividly remember pouring my aunt and uncle's beer down the sink because 'God didn't want them to do that anymore.' my church (seen here) is a place that i have come to loathe because of closemindedness and neverending arguements between myself and the pastor, youth leader, and other members of the congregation. i am still a firm believer in Christ, but not neccesarily the Bible. yes, it was written by God through prophets, but those prophets were humans too, and they might have seen it fit to change some things around. like i said to someone in a previous religious debate away from church, 'if God wanted to do all the things He did in the Bible, then He did. some of it may not be real, but if He wanted to have jonah swallowed by a whale, He had it done, and He had it done His way.'

just let me say this now, because i know this will come up eventually, but its really hard to be a christian and be bi and try to justify your feelings for certain people while trying to stay firm in your beliefs. i'm sure that its at least similar for people that believe in some parts of the Bible and not others and don't know how to go about expressing or practicing their faith. i'm just upset by the actions of people that are of any faith and immediatly exile a person for one reason or another.

[looks up] [blink blink] ok...no more typing for annie about any type of emotional topic whatsoever...

 

[Feslmogh]

I looked at the whole web site and I'm a little concerned about this organnization...

1. They want to to read the KJV only and claim that it is God's "preserved words in English".

If you read the history of the KJV, you'll find some controversy about it.

The King James Version - its history, its accuracy, and its relevance today

The History of the English Bible - Part III:
From the KJV to the RV
(from Elegance to Accuracy)


As you can see the KJV is not a very good translations of the Hebrew and Greek scriptures. Me, I read the NIV, NAS, and the NKJV. With those I began to understand very clearly about the Bible. I also have study books that go indepth in the scriptures.

This
trac made me sick!

Christians think their interpretation of God is right. They say that everybody else is wrong...but meanwhile on the other side of the world, Buddhists are saying the same thing about Christianity. My view on the subject of "who's right" is this: nobody. Nobody has a completely perfect, exact view of what 'God' is. Each religion contains pieces of the puzzle, but because of our own predjudices against that religion (and nobody likes being wrong), the picture of God is never complete.

Hate to say this but Christianity is not a religion. Religion is man reaching God with works, Christinity is God reaching for us! The Bible gives a view on who God really is. Christianity and Buddism are not the same.
http://www.crucified4u.com/buddhist/default.htm

I'll post more information whenever I can!

GOD BLESS!

 

[Calico]

Originally posted by Feslmogh

Hate to say this but Christianity is not a religion. Religion is man reaching God with works, Christinity is God reaching for us! The Bible gives a view on who God really is. Christianity and Buddism are not the same.

Then somebody better update my dictionary:

re·lig·ion n. Abbr. rel., relig. 1.a. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe. b. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship. 2. The life or condition of a person in a religious order. 3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader. 4. A cause, a principle, or an activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.

Both Christianity and Buddhism fall under this definition.

 

[zero zero nine]

before you read this, no, I'm not a fanatic or anything. I'm a minister's kid... so I called up my dad and asked him about this stuff. Like about the aborigines who don't know about Christ.

There's a verse in the Bible (I forgot where it is ) that says for those who don't know about Christ, they will (and this is the big kicker) be judged according to the law of their own heart. Say, for sake of hypothesis, that it was the highest tribal law somewhere to kill and eat other humans. Now imagine some native thought to himself, "no, humans taste bad. i won't do it."

Where do you think he's going to go?

Guess what? He goes to hell. Because in his heart, he defies the laws by which he was raised. That defiance is what makes God angry.

Take note: This is different from knowing Christianity and then doing evil.

Killing people, to the native, is not evil. By not killing people, he is disobeying the law, which is evil.

I know it seems weird, but if you think about it, it starts to make sense. My dad explained it to me way better than I just did right now.

 

[Mr. Unspeakable]

This trac Are Roman Catholics Christians? is the reason I don't like people like Jack Chick. But then again, if the man can write a classic like Dark Dungeons he's not all bad.

 

[Bud 'n Lou]

Originally posted by Feslmogh

This
trac made me sick!

So THAT'S how Britney Spears got a record contract...

 

[The Guitar Slayer]

Just read the "Are Catholics Christian?" tract. I'm not a happy camper. This is as bad as some anti-Semitic, anti-African American literature that I've heard of.

Let's take this from square one. He says that Catholics are not Christian -- not followers of Christ. They follow a leader called a 'pope.' There is no mention of 'pope' in the Bible, so it must be wrong....well, there isn't a mention of the word 'dinosaur' in there, and we've been digging those suckers up since the 1700s. Just because it isn't there in the Bible doesn't mean it didn't exist or happen. Same thing goes for evolution; Catholics think it happened, but that God guided it.

Anyway...looking back on Church history, there appears to be a Saint Peter, direct disciple of Jesus, the first Pope. The Rock, the leader of the flock, Simon Peter the apostle. If we go by Mr. Chick's logic, Catholics are wrong. Popes are wrong. St. Peter, the first Pope, must've been wrong....Peter's leader, Jesus Christ, would logically be wrong, too...and that just stomped that comic strip's entire basis to the ground.

I'm not going to play the offended victimized Catholic. I admit, the Church screwed up mightily. Martin Luther gave 97 theses on why...and he was dead on. From Peter, it was all good. Then some popes made certain changes for themselves...and it spread down. The Church was obsessed with tradition and money more than helping people. The Reformation and Protestant split gave the Church a big wake up call.

Vatican II was the biggest correction in Church history. It helped clear up a lot of stuff and relaxed some of the more ridiculous rules. They might be slow, but the Church does clean up after its own messes, and I can tell you, the Pope was really cheesed off at the Cardinals when they went to Rome. The sins of a few people can affect millions.

PS...I've never seen one of those whatchamacallits in my life...that thing that catches the Eucharist. Nor have I ever heard of this. Must be based on something pre-Vatican II...

 

[The Mad Hatter]

Wow, this certainly got off-topic in a hurry.

Toon Zone tends to discourage overt political discussion because, though there is the potential for some truly fascinating and insightful replies, there's also the potential for some nasty, knee-jerk flame wars. And, while I can't read the minds of the admins, I'd imagine the same applies to heated religious debate. With that in mind, I'd like to discourage further threads that compare religions or nitpick strengths or flaws.