"Lex...Lex...listen to someone who knows...dont wait...do it NOW!"

[CBright7831]

Was anyone surprised The Joker would just try to goad Luthor into killing Batman?

I mean, after "The Man Who Killed Batman" and "Mad Love", you'd think he'd be the one who'd want to put a slug in between Batman's face and not let Luthor do it.

 

[Silly McGooses]

Yeah, I have to say, even for the very flexible character of the Joker, I thought this was a bit random and wrong for the DCAU version of the character.

 

[Toddman]

I don't think it was so out of character. There's a difference between somebody else killing Batman of their own initiative, independent of the Joker, and the Joker acting as the devil on Luthor's shoulder whispering "...do it now."


Toddman

 

[DerekPowers]

I don't think it was so out of character. There's a difference between somebody else killing Batman of their own initiative, independent of the Joker, and the Joker acting as the devil on Luthor's shoulder whispering "...do it now."


Toddman

Agreed. I just LOVED The Joker in "Injustice For All". He was like the best thing about that episode, imo.

 

[Wolf Boy2]

I hated this episode wholesale. It was the first JL episode I ever saw, and it just seemed so mucked up. The horrible backgrounds made in Gimp *cough* I mean, Photoshop (version 0.1). Superman's voice and design. A different green lantern from the STAS version. Using the word "destroy" instead of "kill." Arresting Lex. Batman patrolling Metropolis (huh?). That absurd jailbreak where Luthor got a bomb out of nowhere. Ultra Humanite (I've always hated him). Even the freaking Wonder Twins, just to twist the knife.

There was so much wrong with that episode that I didn't even notice the Joker being out of character. Didn't help matters any that my next JL episode would be about Gorilla City.

 

[Toddman]

I hated this episode wholesale. It was the first JL episode I ever saw, and it just seemed so mucked up. The horrible backgrounds made in Gimp *cough* I mean, Photoshop (version 0.1). Superman's voice and design. A different green lantern from the STAS version. Using the word "destroy" instead of "kill." Arresting Lex. Batman patrolling Metropolis (huh?). That absurd jailbreak where Luthor got a bomb out of nowhere. Ultra Humanite (I've always hated him). Even the freaking Wonder Twins, just to twist the knife.

It seems to me that about half of your gripes about this episode were actually problems with the entire series (or at least Season 1).

There was so much wrong with that episode that I didn't even notice the Joker being out of character. Didn't help matters any that my next JL episode would be about Gorilla City.

And I still say the Joker was very much in character. The main difference between the situation in IFA and the BTAS examples from above is that the Joker would have been absent for Batman's demise in the BTAS episodes. He was either afraid he might miss the whole thing or thought he already had. In IFA, he would have been there to watch. And eat popcorn.


Toddman

 

[Wolf Boy2]

It seems to me that about half of your gripes about this episode were actually problems with the entire series (or at least Season 1).

Right. But this was the episode that introduced me to those problems, so it holds a certain place of infamy in my heart. It didn't get well with World's Finest, either. Lex's reaction to the Joker's presence didn't seem like how someone would react to seeing the man who tried to kill them and destroyed half the city.

Also, why the mask stayed on is a very valid complaint I had. Though I assume humanite knows, based on the payoff at the end. Still, I would've at least had Luthor unmask Bruce. That would've changed my opinion of the episode somewhat (as well as added some Bruce Wayne screen time to an otherwise Bruce-less season). Though I suppose we could inject fanon and say that Lex did peak under the mask, which is how Amanda Waller knew Bruce's identity.

And I still say the Joker was very much in character. The main difference between the situation in IFA and the BTAS examples from above is that the Joker would have been absent for Batman's demise in the BTAS episodes. He was either afraid he might miss the whole thing or thought he already had. In IFA, he would have been there to watch. And eat popcorn.

Now that I think about it, there were several instances in BTAS where Joker simply tried to kill Batman with a handgun. In truth, I don't think any death of Batman could truly have satisfied him, because it would've taken away his reason to live.

Though, he might have known Lex wasn't going to kill Bruce and was just being a pain in the ass. Joker does excell at that, especially when dealing with a strait arrow like Lex.

 

[AlgeaX]

Also, why the mask stayed on is a very valid complaint I had. Though I assume humanite knows, based on the payoff at the end. Still, I would've at least had Luthor unmask Bruce. That would've changed my opinion of the episode somewhat (as well as added some Bruce Wayne screen time to an otherwise Bruce-less season). Though I suppose we could inject fanon and say that Lex did peak under the mask, which is how Amanda Waller knew Bruce's identity.

I always chalked it up to Lex simply not caring. It was Superman he was obsessed with, all the other leaguers were just in the way.

 

[DisneyBoy]

Though, he might have known Lex wasn't going to kill Bruce and was just being a pain in the ass. Joker does excell at that, especially when dealing with a strait arrow like Lex.

I agree there...but it's also interesting that Lex has had previous encounters with Batman, and knows how resourceful he can be...and yet still left it to others he himself doesn't trust to watch him.

I'm just chalking it up to JL Season One writers acting as though they've never before written for these characters. They could have referred back to the established history, but didn't.

 

[The Weed Of Cri]

The Joker's behavior makes perfect sense to me (at least to the extend that the Joker's behavior can be called "sensible"). I never bought into the rationale that the Joker doesn't really want to kill Batman because Batman is the Joker's reason for living. If that were true, then why does the Joker try to kill Batman every time they meet? It's utter nonsense. True, the Joker would feel cheated if anyone other than he were to kill Batman, but by goading a reluctant Luthor into doing it, the Joker could take the credit for it. It does seem a bit odd that no one tried to unmask Batman, but as we learned in "The Great Brain Robbery", unmasking a superhero can sometimes be of no use at all. It probably occurred to Luthor that a non-powered hero who mostly fought common street crimes and crazed non-powered circus freaks was no one of great importance.

Though I suppose we could inject fanon and say that Lex did peak under the mask, which is how Amanda Waller knew Bruce's identity.

I always assumed Amanda Waller learned Batman's identity from Hugo Strange, who was a part of Cadmus and knew Batman's identity. That she chose not to share that information with Luthor (or anyone else) was a matter of internal security. She wanted to control the Justice League and limit their power, not necessarily destroy them, and she at least recognized the League's value while others considered them a menace.

 

[Wolf Boy2]

The Joker's behavior makes perfect sense to me (at least to the extend that the Joker's behavior can be called "sensible"). I never bought into the rationale that the Joker doesn't really want to kill Batman because Batman is the Joker's reason for living. If that were true, then why does the Joker try to kill Batman every time they meet? It's utter nonsense. True, the Joker would feel cheated if anyone other than he were to kill Batman, but by goading a reluctant Luthor into doing it, the Joker could take the credit for it.

I didn't mean that he consciously considers Batman his reason for living. I meant that on a subconscious level, no Bat-death could truly satisfy him.

It does seem a bit odd that no one tried to unmask Batman, but as we learned in "The Great Brain Robbery", unmasking a superhero can sometimes be of no use at all. It probably occurred to Luthor that a non-powered hero who mostly fought common street crimes and crazed non-powered circus freaks was no one of great importance.

Of course, that's assuming that Luthor ever wanted Batman dead at all. Luthor, being one of the "create a better world" type villains would certainly have room in his better world for heroes like Batman (as long as they didn't challenge him).

In the Justice Lord's universe, notice the only Superhero that Luthor killed was Flash (a Justice Leaguer)? None of the countless other heroes warranted his attention. Luthor could've pursued Batman after World's Finest, if he had cared. But without Superman, Batman was no threat.

Now why Luthor would have allowed Bruce Wayne to live is another matter. Killing off Brucie would eliminated one of Luthor's top bussiness competators. Then again, maybe not, since Bruce pulled out of the weapons trade. Wayne offered no competition in that regard.

I think of Luthor as a cool, calm villian, like David Xanatos from Gargoyles. He doesn't want to kill everyone, but rather use everyone. Xanatos could have killed all the Gargoyles at any time, but he kept them alive because he could still use them (and they proved very helpful when Oberon attacked him). I think Luthor would be very similar to Batman. He would kill Batman if the two were fighting, but otherwise keep him around.

 

[Toddman]

Also, why the mask stayed on is a very valid complaint I had. Though I assume humanite knows, based on the payoff at the end. Still, I would've at least had Luthor unmask Bruce. That would've changed my opinion of the episode somewhat (as well as added some Bruce Wayne screen time to an otherwise Bruce-less season). Though I suppose we could inject fanon and say that Lex did peak under the mask, which is how Amanda Waller knew Bruce's identity.

I don't think that's a valid complaint if your starting point of reference was the established DCAU at that time.

Think back to all the episodes of BTAS that involved a bad guy capturing Batman and not removing his mask (off the top of my head: Cat and the Claw, Read My Lips, Heart of Ice, P.O.V., Harley and Ivy, Trial, Mad Love, Perchance to Dream, not to mention several episodes w/the Joker himself...). At least one could argue that Luthor had no use for Batman's secret identity or was at least overly cautious after finding out that parts of his costume were booby-trapped...

Toddman

 

[Wolf Boy2]

I don't think that's a valid complaint if your starting point of reference was the established DCAU at that time.

Just because it was done on other episodes doesn't make it any less rediculous. Also, in most of those episodes the people probably wouldn't have recognized Bruce Wayne. He's not that much of a celebrety.

"Trial" doesn't really count, as the Joker wanted to remove Batman's mask as the "grand finale" of the mock trial.

In the 1940s, the creators of the Lone Ranger forbade stories of his capture to be written at all because of the logic problems stemming from unmasking. This would have been a good guideline for Batman, had they followed it.

At least one could argue that Luthor had no use for Batman's secret identity or was at least overly cautious after finding out that parts of his costume were booby-trapped...

I remember that Cobra Commander in GI Joe had explosives in his helmet, so that if it was forcibly removed, it would blow up.

 

[Light Lucario]

I don't think that that moment was out of character for the Joker. I thought that he wanted Lex to kill him, rather than just let him be tied up, because, as Joker mentioned himself in part one of that episode, he knows how the Bat thinks. He would know that, if left alive for that long, Batman would escape, which would ruin their plan, as well as a chance to finally kill him.

I understand the idea that Batman gives Joker a reason to live, but I think of it more like Batman gives Joker a reason for his crimes. From nearly all of the episodes involving the Joker and Batman fighting, it seems like Joker acts out his crimes as games. A key part of those games involves intense struggles between him and Batman. Without that conflict, Joker could easily get away with most anything. The Joker himself mentioned that in "The Man Who Killed Batman" when he said: "Without Batman, crime has no punch line."I always noticed that Batman was the only one who could really challenge the Joker, while everyone else in Gotham pretty much were struggling to figure out his plans.

The act of killing Batman almost feels like an attempt to win the game that Joker always plays with him. If he doesn't feel like he did it or was a part of it, he acts either depressed, as he did in the already mentioned BTAS episode, or becomes extremely mad, like he did in "Mad Love." If he was able to convince Lex to take him out right then and there, not only would he be a part of his death, but he would be able to stand right there and watch it happen. Of course, Batman wouldn't let that happen because he's Batman.

As for the whole unmasking thing, I've always thought that was kind of strange. Batman has been captured before, but rarely do the criminals try to unmask him. The only time I could remember that happening was at the end of "Trial." But that was because Joker wanted to save that for the end of the trial anyway. I guess that for all of the people who captured him that his death was more important than finding out who he is. They could easily find out his identity after taking off his mask, if they didn't know what Bruce Wayne looked like, but they would probably get more street credit and fame for killing him as Batman, not as Bruce Wayne.

 

[Nightwing]

Obviously there were problems of that nature with all of Season 1 of Justice League, but I found The Joker's complete involvement in the episode to be absolutely in character. He was directly responsible for The Injustice Gang being able to capture Batman. Some joke on Bruce, eh? HA! Now THAT'S funny! So Joker would be completely cool with it.

That's a proper legal test to see if a story is worthy of The Joker's mind. Is it a "good joke," in the sense that it's a prank (on someone or a group), except where homicide is involved.

I didn't mean that he consciously considers Batman his reason for living. I meant that on a subconscious level, no Bat-death could truly satisfy him.

That makes perfect sense, and I could see any writer who is being true to Batman's and The Joker's characters taking that route. My dissent is simply that I disagree with it. Joker is crazy, but if he's THAT crazy, then how does he serve as an actual threat to Batman's life when he DOES directly threaten him? He directly threatens Bruce's city, people, and structure, which is the mode to attack, but in his stories he ALSO goes after the man himself.

I think of Luthor as a cool, calm villian, like David Xanatos from Gargoyles. He doesn't want to kill everyone, but rather use everyone.

That's where you lose me with Luthor. He is his own man, his own villain, and I'll love his character forever for it, but he isn't as close to David Xanatos as David Xanatos is. Xanatos is much more subtle and tricky. Even with that aside, Luthor is a business man in the sense that if you know something you shouldn't, or some similar grievance, and you are expendable, you're dead the next day.

 

[Wolf Boy2]

That's where you lose me with Luthor. He is his own man, his own villain, and I'll love his character forever for it, but he isn't as close to David Xanatos as David Xanatos is. Xanatos is much more subtle and tricky. Even with that aside, Luthor is a business man in the sense that if you know something you shouldn't, or some similar grievance, and you are expendable, you're dead the next day.

Well, one problem here is that we have multiple Luthors to draw from but only one definitive Xanatos (unless you split hairs and count the Goliath Chronicles incarnation as a different character).

I think I might have been wrong about Luthor, in that I was considering the manipulative JLU Luthor more than the criminal JL Luthor or "businessman" STAS Luthor. STAS Luthor just wanted to kill Superman and any other obstacle, where JLU Luthor actually considered Superman (and the rest of the League) worthy pawns, as exemplified in "Clash."

And I think it was these JL stories that brought on those changes. When I first saw the JL Luthor, I thought it was a travesty of Luthor's character. I like it more in retrospect, now that I understand that the JL Luthor arcs were developing probably the best incarnation of that character ever.

 

[Toddman]

Just because it was done on other episodes doesn't make it any less rediculous.

And I agree. It's just that in your original critique of IFA, a couple of your complaints stemmed from the inconsistencies between the JL series and the previously established DCAU, and your preference for the earlier material. I thought that pointing out past instances from BTAS where villains failed to unmask Batman when they were given the opportunity might soften the blow about Luthor's decision.

Also, in most of those episodes the people probably wouldn't have recognized Bruce Wayne. He's not that much of a celebrety.

But it's not as if the bad guys in those episodes already knew they wouldn't recognize Batman's real face (not to mention that some of them would have). And it's not as though Luthor had possessed the insight that he would know. So there's really no difference. Unless I'm not following your point here...?

"Trial" doesn't really count, as the Joker wanted to remove Batman's mask as the "grand finale" of the mock trial.

Well, I did say I was coming up with those episodes off the top of my head, and so I forgot about the climax in "Trial." But that's fine. Feel free replace "Trial" on that list of episodes featuring villains who fail to unmask Batman with "Deep Freeze". Or "Eternal Youth". Or "Almost Got 'Im"...


Toddman

 

[Wolf Boy2]

But it's not as if the bad guys in those episodes already knew they wouldn't recognize Batman's real face (not to mention that some of them would have). And it's not as though Luthor had possessed the insight that he would know. So there's really no difference. Unless I'm not following your point here...?

I meant that it would be like "Flash and Substance" or the train battle in Spider-Man 2 -- the people would see face, but not know or care who it was. They might later recognize Bruce's face, but its doubtful.

But, of course, we are talking about a comic book world where glasses or a domino mask can conceal one's identity from their lover.

Actually, capturing Batman is one of my biggest beefs with the DCAU in general. But when I saw "Injustice For All", the only DCAU episodes I had were the single disc BTAS and STAS releases, Batman Beyond on VHS, Mystery of the Batwoman and Return of the Joker (edited). I had not, at that time, seen enough DCAU Batman to know how often he got captured.

 

[RuneKnight3]

With some exceptions of course, where just bad writing can be at play, I would point out that you have to consider the character's motivations for unmasking or not. The Joker wouldn't unmask bcause he doesn't care about the man beneath the mask, he wants Batman and only Batman. Some villains, like The Ventriloquist, wouldn't unmask because their main focus is not information like others - catch the bat, and things will go smoother - but capture just as a means to an ends. Other times there have been near unmaskings that resulted in som level of violence or situation control from Batman. I think the masking/unmaskng question is just a matter of whether or not anyone thought of it at the time.

 

[Nightwing]

...definitive Xanatos (unless you split hairs and count the Goliath Chronicles incarnation as a different character).

No problem. I don't know if it would really be splitting hairs. He was way way suddenly SUPER nice, and Greg Weisman himself even commented on how that's not the EXACT direction he wanted Xanatos to travel.

I think I might have been wrong about Luthor, in that I was considering the manipulative JLU Luthor more than the criminal JL Luthor or "businessman" STAS Luthor. STAS Luthor just wanted to kill Superman and any other obstacle, where JLU Luthor actually considered Superman (and the rest of the League) worthy pawns, as exemplified in "Clash."

Given the writing I'd say there's room for all of that in Luthor. As far as my specific road, when I thought of that "killing you is on my business man's to-do list today!" type theme, I immediately thought of Superman Doomsday Lex, Smallville Lex (forgive me but that part of him was fun), and John Shea's Lois & Clark Lex.

I meant that it would be like "Flash and Substance" or the train battle in Spider-Man 2 -- the people would see face, but not know or care who it was. They might later recognize Bruce's face, but its doubtful.

But, of course, we are talking about a comic book world where glasses or a domino mask can conceal one's identity from their lover.

Barry Allen in The New Frontier covered that part very well and realistically, and so did Lois & Clark. As a Superman fanboy I did an extensive study on all of Lois & Clark and found it to be a very accurate depiction of the characters.