"Captain America: Civil War" Talkback (Spoilers)

[Yojimbo]

"I'm sorry, Tony. You know I wouldn't do this if I had any other choice. But he's my friend." - Captain America
"So was I." - Iron Man​

Captain America: Civil War
Release Date: May 6, 2016 (May 5 advance screenings)
Studio: Walt Disney Pictures, Marvel Studios
Directors: Anthony Russo, Joe Russo
MPAA Rating: PG -13 (for extended sequences of violence, action and mayhem)
Screenwriters: Christopher Markus, Stephen McFeely
Starring: Chris Evans, Robert Downey Jr., Scarlett Johansson, Sebastian Stan, Anthony Mackie, Emily VanCamp, Don Cheadle, Jeremy Renner, Chadwick Boseman, Paul Bettany, Elizabeth Olsen, Paul Rudd, Frank Grillo, William Hurt, Daniel Brühl, Tom Holland

Plot Summary: Marvel’s Captain America: Civil War finds Steve Rogers leading the newly formed team of Avengers in their continued efforts to safeguard humanity. But after another incident involving the Avengers results in collateral damage, political pressure mounts to install a system of accountability, headed by a governing body to oversee and direct the team. The new status quo fractures the Avengers, resulting in two camps—one led by Steve Rogers and his desire for the Avengers to remain free to defend humanity without government interference, and the other following Tony Stark’s surprising decision to support government oversight and accountability.

Discuss Captain America: Civil War right here!

Related Discussion:
-Ant-Man Feature Talkback (Spoilers)
-The Avengers: Age of Ultron Feature Talkback (Spoilers)
-Captain America: The Winter Soldier Feature Talkback (Spoilers)
-Iron Man 3 Feature Talkback (Spoilers)
-Marvel's The Avengers Feature Talkback (Spoilers)
-Captain America:The First Avenger Feature Talkback (Spoilers)
-Iron Man 2 Feature Talkback (Spoilers)
-Iron Man Feature Talkback (Spoilers)
-Marvel Cinematic Universe News & Discussion (Spoilers)
-Sam Wilson: Captain America Comic Talkback (Spoilers)
-The Invincible Iron Man Comic Talkback (Spoilers)

 

[Neo Ultra Mike]

You know though never the most profitable and honestly never specifically a favorite of a lot of people in terms of Avengers, I think Captain America has by far the highest streak of quality when it comes to all of his films. Even though I'm more forgiving on Iron Man 2 then a lot of people I admit it did have some obvious flaws, I still only mildly care for the first Thor and even the second Avengers though still very good was a bit disappointing. Cap though has been hitting it out of the park. There were a couple of corny moments in his first movie and I still admit the first two scenes of it for me were eh but the rest was really good stuff and yeah I'm with the people who dig the hell out of Winter Soldier and appreciate it being a more serious movie. I know some people nitpick those films but... honestly those are some of the biggest complaints you can get about them as well; nitpicking. Though as good as the movies have been one thing I've really been digging is how each movie is not only dependent on a real team work aspect but each seems to be giving into more shades of grey themes. The first was simple enough since well Hydra is pretty much Marvel Nazis anyway so you couldn't go too deep with them and it was suppose to be a campy 40's throwback. Winter Soldier was a 70's spy thriller that blurred the edge with former allies becoming foes and making it hard to trust as even the so called bad guys had some questionable ethics. But Civil War is really treading that line by having the big force Cap faces in this movie be Iron Man. However unlike Batman v Superman this has actually been set up with not only the two in their separate movies but their previous interactions in the Avengers movies. So them actually clashing even not knowing fully how it plays out has some weight to it. However how does that work now having finally seen it?

I would say it has and I like how every character has a good moment to shine and the various drama we do get here and how it concludes. Which I'm going to put in spoiler tags because well as per usual this is a super long rambly review so be warned if you decide to read it all.

Spoiler

And since there are bound to be a lot of comparisons between Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice and this, especially when everyone finds out exactly what the plot of these two movies are, let's spell out why this one is better. Because at the end of the day the supposed big clash the movies are building to involve the two big title characters fighting one another to the supposed death. So why does this work a lot better then Dawn of Justice? Because since this is the big climatic final plan that isn't going to be topped, we can have the heroes fighting be the focus and not worry about larger threats. Yeah it seemed like Zemo was making a bunch of super soldiers but nope those weren't a threat as his whole plan was "well I can't beat the Avengers but I can make them fight one another". Which yeah I suppose was sort of in a sense Loki's plan but instead of mystical deception this one is more "bringing out various truths and conflicts between the team so they'll disband." I guess it is sort of concidience Zemo was able to get all the parites he wanted of Bucky Steven and Tony in one place to reveal the Winter Soldier offed Iron Man's parents but considering this was something he was working on and the movie was building up how much of a super spy secret threat he was it makes sense. Since yeah this guy admits "I can't really do it on my own but I can force the issue on you two" and hey this is a clash that involves dead parents that you know is sort of more caused by these reveals, not ends it which is another point in it's favor. I think this works better as well because it's sticking to the theme of getting vengeance and letting yourself be warped by hatred is wrong because it allows yourself to be corrupted and used. Since most everyone in the movie, especially Tony, Bucky and T'Challa were all fueled by hatred and lust for blood in some form or another thanks to Zemo or even situations since yeah the whole Civil War contract pack... which was obvious more a part of the comic that was more just really mentioned here as this was more about themes was kind of just window dressing as it was all about getting over being corrupted by emotion. Which I think works. And honestly it leads to a lot of good bits from everyone who I'm going to go over in order as yeah we have like a dozen people to talk about in this battle so I'm fine going through them piece by piece to talk about them.

Captain America: Hmmm actually thinking about it Steve actually did start out crippled by emotion as shown in that opening fight with Cross Bones managing to get under his skin mentioning Bucky until he was reminded of Peggy Carter's words during her funeral about not letting guilt get the better of you. It is sad to see Peggy has officially died within the MCU especially since yeah with how Agent Carter did second season don't know if we'll get a third but good to see it have an impact here and I like how downplayed the relationship between Steve and Sharon Carter is. Yeah they kissed but it was more her helping him out subtley and covertly and that kiss being more a sense of comedy relief due to Bucky and Sam's reaction to it. As yeah there's only really romance hinted at in this movie as that's not a core focus. Heck for Steve the core focus is finding his friend and then protecting him along with his morals since though he wants to in a sense believe in the treaty can't because it could sort of hamper the ideals he has of being a hero and wanting to stick to those morals. Especially like how he ended the movie with the letter and breaking his friends out of prison to repay their loyalty to him. And honestly he had a lot of great moments chatting with everyone from trying to point out to Scarlet Witch her blowing up Cross Bones was more on him for being so easily distracted, realizing Tony had already made up his mind about singing it and wanting to for Bucky's sake until realizing how some like Wanda might be screwed over, his talks with Bucky about their past together, meeting the rest of his team and formulating the plan with them, bonding a bit with Peter realizing they're both new Yorkers in their battle (his greatest moment of that conflict BTW was probably getting Peter to hold that large piece on concreate up or maybe kicking away War Machine. Hard to tell as that had a lot of epic beats) and then shielding Iron Man to take him down. Honestly I think this also proved more then the other movies why Cap is the leader: even if Steve isn't the strongest or even the most logical he is the one who will fight the most for his personal believes and ethics to protect those he cares for and always stays on top to not let these things get to him but still shows he has his own issues as well. So it really works for me in that regard.

Iron Man: Hmmm there were a few people promised in this movie that we didn't get. There wasn't a Daredevil cameo (unless I missed it which I don't think I did) and yeah Pepper Potts isn't in this movie. She's mentioned as yeah Tony seems on the outs with her likely because even after promising to stop building armors in Iron Man 3 he still does it (finally glad they pointed out how the suppose ending of that movie wasn't so much an ending but actually acknowledged it which is more then Age of Ultron did honestly) and thus left and... sure she'll be back in some form again but wasn't here. It does paint more a reason why Tony is so willing to go on the side of the treaty especially being chewed out by that woman for one of the kids dying which BTW this movie handles the fact people die and the heroes are blamed way more then Batman v Superman is. As yeah I remember in that movie there was a scene of a woman complaining about what Superman did but it was confusing on what exactly her issue is or how she was even in that scene. Here it made much more sense and it had much more an impact without stupid religious speils and the like... okay enough talking about that other movie, focusing on Tony Stark. Who yeah is in a weird way sort of the antagonist or at the very least the biggest major force with Zemo in the shadows that Steve goes up against. And again it works since it shows the two actually chatting and trying to work this out civily but it obviously breaking down. And actually making Tony a bit more serious still works with the character as the anger he feels at Winter Soldier actually works without it feeling overly forced or anything. Plus yeah the guy is still allowed to be funny and have a lot of good jabs whether he was hassling Ross and not properly setting up meetings with him or hiding info from the guy, quipping to Widow about whether she can be trusted or knows where Hulk is, pointing out he was only in his regular suit when they were holding Bucky and only had his Iron glove thus needed to change, that whole bit he had with Peter revealing he knew who he was, flirting with Aunt May and asking him to join him by trying to pry at the Spider Boy, Spider person name (honestly I wanted Peter and Tony to have a scene together since hearing Peter would be in the MCU and this delievered. Though since Tony will be in Spider Man Homecoming now that they showed the start of their relationship let it progress and give reason for why there is still room for a Spider Man in a world with Iron Man in it) including later being annoyed at Peter for calling Empire Strikes back dated, commenting to Natasha at first he was trying to go easy on Steve and team before realizing who everyone was, him double punching Giant Man with War Machine in the big fight along with easily blasting away all of Hawkeye's arrows, knocking Scott by not even knowing apparently who the guy was at prison and the big action scene at the end with trying to get to Cap's style but not learning it in time and then being called Tony Stank by Stan Lee. Not Stan's funniest cameo but honestly one of the funnier ones in awhile. And honestly like I thought sort of humbling, though only kind of Tony's personality for this to have him face off with Cap works and still makes you like the guy in the end despite sort of being the heavy throughout but never going too far or making him look like an idiot for being set up. Unlike how easily Batman was tricked n... okay okay enough comparisons to that but point is Tony's arc also really worked for me here.

Winter Soldier: Hmmm, is it just me or is there more of Bucky here then there was in the movie that had his name in the title? Seriously the film open and ends (well not the last ending teaser but the mid credits teaser) with him and honestly seeing some of his successful kills or even attempts to get away makes him feel like a more credible threat here. Granted I think the idea of 5 more super soldiers still seems like something a connected Avengers could easily take on but yeah hidden super soldiers against a few and against the world would be a threat. And honestly the idea of "what if Bucky was alive but the enemy" isn't nearly as interesting as "Bucky's being used and trying to do the right thing but isn't sure if he is a source that can be trusted." Some places kind of over do the whole having an unstable element on your side like with Peeta in Hunger Games but it works here as though it does happen in the movie it's more a scene to show just how dangerous Bucky can still be and give more reason to have him taken down and honestly actually having him be able to comedically interact with the other Avengers is great. Really enjoyed it when he was in the car being smushed in by Sam or later "I hate you" when the two were webbed up by Spider Man when fighting him and again bantering with Cap. I think Bucky's best scene was his action escape though since feels like this was trying to pull a dare devil season 2 with an inventive stair way chase scene except not in one shot but still looked good and then being beat down by Panther and how he stole the motorcycle and wound up being chased was cool. As was the ending fight with him and Steve vs Iron man. yeah the trailer spoiled the two tag teaming but not bits like Iron Man closing the door on him or Bucky's metallic arm being blasted off as we then end it with him on the mend in Wakanda. Could mean he won't be seen again as put on ice or could be lead in to the Black Panther movie but either way enjoyable stuff from him. Honestly glad he didn't die like I thought he did in First Avenger... look I'm not a comic person okay who didn't know the Winter Soldier was a thing like 5 years ago so I assumed they'd just offed him so my bad on that but the arc they did with him here was really good.

Black Panther: It's kind of obvious with how T'Challa's first scene went his father T'Chaka was going to die but I really do appreciate the point as he's the one who gets to the say the whole moral about not letting vengeance consume and turn you against someone to be a puppet of another. As he's the one who takes down Zemo without killing him in his final scene. *Sighs* And I know I promised not to keep making these references but... T'Challa is pretty much how Wonder Woman in Dawn of Justice is done right. The voice is actually fitting, you actually get a sense of his personality and spirit and how it's different from other characters related to people we've seen and of the MCU in general, you get a feel for his tech throughout without him just being added in random scenes, and you make him look cool and his world look cool and want to see more even though we just get a taste here. As yeah the bit of Wakanda shown makes me want to see more. I have a feeling if Ryan Coolige and his team had shown more of what they wanted to do with the country we'd see more of it but hey that Panther thing there was good. And I do like though he's joked about (Falcon asking why he dresses like a cat and War Machine having to give him a sort of royal pardon) he does have a cool sense of dignity and menance throughout. I also like how it's pretty obvious in all of their clashes it did seem like he was superior to the Winter Soldier as he constantly needed to get bailed out in their fights as heck he seemed more then a match for Captain America in the big airport fight even if he stopped by Black Widow though hey he still made it to the climax. Actually seemed like she was earnest of trying to support and help him out but yeah kind of playing him again since yeah that's her specality but again T'Challa getting over vengeance and realizing how that makes you use people was good. Does make me wonder what the focus of his own movie will be but the fact I think Chadwick really nailed the role here and makes me want to see him in his own film shows just how well the guy did and how much more he has going for him.

Hawkeye: Thinking about it... Hawkeye out of the twelve oddly enough feels like he gets the biggest shaft. I don't know why as character wise he seemed to have a lot going for him for Age of Ultron which they bring up here but don't do a lot with. Then again we have a lot of characters but it made more sense why in the original Avengers he was sort of sidelined. I mean it's not like he spends this movie for the most part brainwashed and honestly when he does come in he does have some cool moments: holding the vision with some trick arrows and trying to fight him but the Vision just constantly going through his attacks, him wondering what the deal with Spider Man was when they were trying to fight him, pointing out to T'Challa they hadn't really met when he fought him fairly evently with his hawk staff which honestly I think was his coolest moment in that fight as other team combos like with Wanda or Scott were more on them and then yeah calling out Tony who tried calling him for not thinking of his family when he was locked up in jail. I do like how this carried connections he had previously like with Wanda and with Black Widow of the two of them still being friends and going easy on one another during their fight and still being on Cap's side due to his greviances with the act and what not. Just not a lot from him even if it again what we had like with everyone else was really solid stuff.

Black Widow: You know I'm really glad that this pointed out that Cap and Sharon are a couple and he and Widow are just friends as I do like their relationship a lot and how supportive the two are. I also do like how Natasha was actually more in favor of the treaty contract due to not wanting to split the group and despite knowing SHIELD had so many secrets wanting to go where she could do the most work but realizing no matter how much was thrown at Steve how much he'd fight and helping out at the end by kind of stunning Black Panther. Actually she isn't in the big brawl that much as granted she is the first to really own Ant Man who she easily knocks around and even when he tries his whole grow small and sneak around thing still stuns him but gets knocked supposedly around by Wanda but again still has her point. And honestly I think her best action scene was at the beginning. Granted the bit tag teaming with Sharon to take on the Winter Soldier when he was rampaging was great especially her being annoyed he still didn't even remember her when she was being choked out but honestly the stuff at the opening pointing out to Scarlet despite having powers you need to watch yourself more and then coming in to easily own some people to the side of her and even getting punched by Cross Bones into a tank easily owning the people in there and getting out of the way of the explosion and taking out a guy running and thanks to the red spy little flyer Falcon had (think her being annoyed at its name was the first big laugh I had in the movie) but she had some good banter bits throughout, though I do wish there was a scene where before the battle Natasha and Peter had a moment and he said the two had the Spider connection or something. Still her support coming to the funeral for Steve and even trying to make nice with T'Challa and others despite being duplicitous at some points really worked for me. And hey Natasha was actually like major third billing in this movie which is much more then I thought... I list these by the teams they were apart of back and forth and of who comes to mind first but yeah going by the credits on that one so good job getting there Natasha.

Scarlet Witch: Honestly I think some of my favorite team combos were with Wanda like her in the beginning helping Cap fly up with her powers and then using them in conjunction with Hawkeye to distract Iron man so she could hit him with a bunch of cars. And I do like how though it's still pretty obvious Pietro's death hangs over her they don't have Wanda constantly mention him or anything. And have her hang up be concern over her own power and feeling bad about you know getting people killed inadvertingly because of it and wanted to not just be treated like a liability. And I like the point Tony makes of her not being a registered citizen and being well a super powered elemental witch as a reason why people would be so distrusting. So it works without even having to use the mutant word. And hey this actually is able to build a good reason why in this universe Scarlet Witch and the Vision have a relationship together and they have some charming scenes together and her actually blasting him down some half the building actually works and still makes it feel like the two could be a couple. Which is weird as it's a relationship I always knew about but never knew how the movies were going to make her and him work as a couple but... they did so good on them. Plus I like how they balance out her and Vision being the obvious strongest characters but not just ending it by making it feel like even if they are stronger everyone's equal if they can get enough good or surprise shots in like her being blasted by by War Machine's sound pulser so she couldn't even keep up the pressure on the building she was trying to hold up for Bucky and Steve. I also think due to her not having the best control of her powers she's also the most reluctant to fight but like how it can be set off like seeing Cap or later Hawkeye in trouble and the like. Supposedly this is still only a tease of her powers we'll see more in form down the line. And speaking of that...

The Vision: Yeah the Vision talks about his mind stone here which yeah you know is going to lead to trouble once we really get into the Infinity Gaunlet stuff but yeah that will come later. For now though I do like that binding theme of that's what makes him connect with Wanda and actually want to protect her even if he still has the logical "well technically due to us having super powers we are a threat so logically it makes sense to be more in line." And honestly him using his powers to make the line and then later losing his concentration to wind up shooting at war machine accidently also show off the strengths and weaknesses of his power. Though oddly enough what won me over on him was the fact well this guy seems like the odd dorkly member of the team. Granted the two brought in bug members seem like geeking and nerding for the Avengers but how Vision fades through the room tl check on Wanda or making reciepes with her and admitting he's never eaten before and how he tries fighting Hawkeye who he says shouldn't try combating back I don't know just make him feel like out of context hilarious lame despite being this obvious powerhouse and I don't know but that combo really works for me, especially since if still feels like we have a lot of Jarvis with this Vision even if they are their own separate character. Part of me wonders why he wasn't in the opening mission since he was a part of the Avengers from Age of Ultron (along with War Machine and it can't be because they join team Iron Man later as Natasha was there who also joins) but it works well here. Plus him trying to logically interpret the news and human emotion along with other things again makes me really warm up to the guy so yeah again good stuff from him.

The Falcon: I think we didn't get much from Falcon's arc since it was brought up in the trailer of him wanting to play both sides since he wants to be Steve's friend but knows if he gets involved too much with that people will be shooting at him too but not much comes of it. I guess it would of been lame to have Sam storm out and whine about it too much especially as you knew he'd come back and make friends with Steve again but it's really only brought up in the actual contract as him and Rhodes argue about it a bit and then in one line. Then again oddly enough Falcon is one of the smarier characters in this movie actually with a lot of great lines. Some I already brought up but also loved his annoyance at his wings being called a bird suit, him seeing Scott again and pointing out that their first fight was a failed audition and he wouldn't get lucky again, and seeing Spider Man and saying everyone needs some sort of gimmick in a fight. In the actual battle I did like him ramming into a lot of characters like Spider Man or Iron Man and dog fighting him and even using his little flyer to get a heads up on him. Hmmmm actually in these big sprawling fights there wasn't as many big one on one ones as I would of liked but that probably wouldn't of been as interesting if everyone had their own specific opponent they were just fighting against as the chaos of the various characters going around made it pop a lot more and honestly though there wasn't too many huge aerial dog fights with War Machine as I thought there'd be, his actual bouts were still good. Plus I do like him pointing out to Iron man at the end "what did you bring a bad cop for these talks cause otherwise I'm not telling you anything" which yeah he does but only because Tony actually gave him a reason to.

War Machine: And yeah go from one "supportive black friend" to another. Though hey props to Colonel Rhodes for actually not dying in this movie. Yeah he might be crippled forever but even then he has two good moments; comedically mocking Stark for being called Stank and saying he'll never let that go and seriously saying he made a commitment to the contract because he believed in it and though knew he could of not made it in the fight flew the 138 missions he did knowing that thing as well and that not letting it stop him. Honestly though Iron Man 2 had him first use the suit and tag team with Tony I think this movie gets the best balance of being a bad ass in the War Machine suit (which again I always liked more then the Iron Man armor for it's giant canon and colors) and actual character. As he had a good amount of moments shooting a bunch of rockets out at various opponents during the huge melee and buzzing around Giant Man. And actually being the one to help apphreend the team after the whole bridge chase also worked. And actually thinking about it him being taken down in a sense by friendly fire sort of burns the whole message of whose side you really on/should there be sides even more if he was taken by another team. Does make me wonder what's going to happen to him since yeah I think only him, Iron Man, and Vision are a part of the official Avengers (Peter's only probably joining at the end and Black Panther probably has no reason to trust those documents that much anymore with Natasha just being a traitor now) but hey he'll have more going forward.

Ant-Man: Thinking about it despite being the first character teased for Civil War based on the ending credits of the last big film, Scott character wise doesn't have much to grow. Granted power wise we literally see him grow into Giant Man and be the huge distraction obstacle for the other team to take down as he tries swatting them all away but eh guess his whole development was in his last movie and we'll see more of that with the Wasp in their next movie. But honestly Scott's still really funny especially intearcing with this new team. I like how he's such a big fan of Captain America shaking his hand and saying he knows everyone else and how he was brought in with the van not knowing even where they are and again trying to say his mom said never to trust a Stark. But yeah his best bits were in the actual airport terminal fight. Again he did get owned by Widow (another chance for a bug joke they didn't take. Seriously three bug related character names and they don't make a reference to that for some reason) but he did get to knock away Spider Man first. And I love the bit where he does that arrow combination with Hawkeye to land on Tony's armor. I think that actually leads to the biggest laugh in the movie for me where he's messing with Tony's armor and unplugging things and Tony asks what's going on where Scott points out it's his doing and then Scott says "it's your conscience. We haven't spoken in awhile" that was awesome and yeah didn't last long but that was just such a great bit and glad to see it appear in the movie even if he didn't have a terrible amount of character stuff he still fit well and really worked with the movie and what not.

Spider-Man: Wow they must of done a lot of digital CGI for the trailers to take out Spider Man from that running shot just for the reveal of him at the end. And actually when I heard Spider Man would only have one scene I was worried we'd only see him in a minor part of the action but no he was in that entire fight. It's just that Peter Parker only appears two more time: a great bit where Tony's talking to him about a scholarship in front of his aunt he's hitting on before revealing he knows he's Spider Man and Peter webbing him to the door knob before deciding to join him and then the end where Peter has to lie about what happened to him before getting a message from Tony. But no he's throughout the big airport fight and has a lot of good moments: him chasing down Falcon and Winter Soldier and saying he was only there for one job, saying when he's fighting Captain America that Iron man said to go for the legs and that Captain America would also try and convince him he was doing the wrong thing, trying to save war machine when he was flung away, doing the Empire Strikes back trick and then Tony telling him to stay down. And honestly I really am liking how spazzy and high energy and nervous Tom Holland's take on Peter parker is. Seems even more twitchy and high strung then MagGuire or Garfield but honestly really works for me. Granted we don't know if he can sell the emotion but he defintley sells the laugh and action as Spider Man quite well and honestly with how this movie ends does make me really look forward to Spider Man's next outing... guess Marvel really wanted to know you knew they had him by having that also be the end beat but eh guess they didn't want to tease too many further events which works in this movie's favor as not having to hint at other things and other connections and just quickly mentoning the gaunlets or where Thor and Hulk are work as does Spider-Man here.

I also want to touch on briefly some other characters like Ross working as a heavy to try and get the Avengers in line with the contract. And with Sharon feeling different from Peggy but still being cool and a good fit for Steve and yeah of Baron Zemo who they did make sympathetic and a much more in the background sort of dangerous villain. But I liked that as they built up scenes of him being nasty but at the end pointed out he did have his reasons and though knew he couldn't win on his own against the Avengers had set ups for it and honestly feels like his own character and one of the better MCU baddies. Certainly a better antagonist then Lex Luthor... okay seriously sorry but bashing that movie is much easier then it really should be honestly so it just keep slipping out.

So yeah honestly did live up to the hype with the actions, characters, story flow and everything I guess the pump of the big airport fight made me want to see it more end like that but the point is to go with a bit of a more downer/scattered end so I'm fine with them going that route honestly. Especially as it does the job of scattering the Avengers but totally not breaking them and hey not needing to really off anyone just for drama (even Black Panther's father had a narrative reason) works and makes this solid And honestly this whole thing feels well constructed and the characters feel fleshed out and it kept my attention throughout even in slower parts and again had the drama and humor at the right points and just overall yeah really solid movie all around.

 

[rggkjg1]

WB should be scared. Given that the premise, hype, and marketing campaign of both movies revolved of hero vs hero, Civil War delivers and succeeds. But that might just because this was simply a good movie, and Dawn Of Justice isn't. People for years have been saying WB needs to get on the ball while Marvel continues to dominate with their films. As far as I'm concerned, WB already dropped the ball. If it hasn't dropped, it WILL be when the total box office, critic tallying, internet praise, etc is all said and done when both theatrical releases are concluded.

I was expecting a straight up adaptation of the story line (where Cap eventually surrenders and is assassinated. *which could have been completely avoided if Iron Man didn't support a superhero registration act). Despite how much I wanted to see Iron Man exposed as the fraud I find him to be, I am also relieved that Cap didn't get killed off at the film's conclusion. Looking forward since Cap didn't get killed off, I'm wondering if a possible 4th installment will (finally) be a legit SOLO Captain America film, and not Avengers 1.5 (Winter Soldier) or Avengers 2.5 (Civil War).

I wasn't too impressed of Winter Soldier, Civil War was a major improvement, but The First Avenger continues to reign supreme (I consider it to be one of, if not THE best Marvel movie - all Marvel movies, not specifically Marvel Studios movies).

Unlike Dawn Of Justice and the cinematic DCU, Civil War doesn't make me feel hopeless for the future of the shared MCU. I continue to have no interest in all the The Avengers films (or their solo movies), but the MCU Spider-Man looks to be impressive. Spider-Man's scenes in Civil War was better than everything I saw in both Amazing Spider-Man films combined.

I also thought every time we saw those large captions when we went to a new location was a bit excessive. I was instantly reminded of the Nostalgia Critic review of the 1990 Captain America.

 

[Freddy]

This movie is awesome! Like I said in News thread, it is absolutely one of the Top-3 of the MCU movies with Winter Soldier and the first Avengers movie (I have to watch this again on dvd, before deciding where I would place it exactly).

The pace of the movie was brisk, but never at the cost of the story or characters. All the fights between the heroes (both the verbal and physical ones) really make you feel bad, since you know almost everyone from the previous movies and their relationships with one and another. However, not even once do the fights feel forced and I can see a lot of people arguing with they friends over who was "right" in the end.

Every character was handled perfectly. Everyone had their own moments to shine and growth as a person, which planted seeds for the future movies nicely. I'm so eager to see how Vision's and Scarlet Witch's relationship will develop, what will Tony Stark's mental deterioration lead to, what plans do

Spoiler

Cap's Secret Avengers

have and what Ryan Coogler will bring us in Panther's solo movie, among other things.

I just have to talk about Spider-Man and Zemo separately. I don't want to declare anything until we have seen more of the character, but Marvel has the potential to give us the definiteve cinematic Spider-Man, since it seems like that we are finally going to get the perfect balance between the two sides of the character. As Peter Parker Tom Holland has Tobey Maguire's awkwardness and as Spider-Man he has Andrew Garfield's swagger, and he moves between these two personalities seamlessly. Zemo, on the other hand, is one of the best MCU villains. Some early twitter reactions were saying something about "wasting the character", but I feel that the minimal use of the character was perfect way to go and Daniel Brühl gives very Hannibal Lecter-y performance. I would love to see him lead the Masters of Evil in some future movie.

The action scenes were easily some of the Mavel's best. Early in the movie, some of the hand-to-hand combat scenes do have some needless shaky-cam (which is weird, since Russo bros. avoided it so perfectly in The Winter Soldier), but as the movie moves on, things get gradually better. Both the big fight between the two teams and the personal fight between Cap and Iron Man where executed with style. Especially certain scene in a airport will be remembered in history.

Can't really think anything more to say. Marvel just scored another victory and if this is a promise of what to expect from Phase 3, I can't help but to shed some fanboy tears of happiness. At least no one can doubt Russo brothers ability to take on the Infinity War.

 

[Young Justice]

I just love the movie. It was one of the best from Marvel Universe, among Iron Man 1 and Cap 2.

My comments are probably the same ones that everybody already posted but I would like to develop further regarding Zemo.

Zemo, on the other hand, is one of the best MCU villains. Some early twitter reactions were saying something about "wasting the character", but I feel that the minimal use of the character was perfect way to go and Daniel Brühl gives very Hannibal Lecter-y performance. I would love to see him lead the Masters of Evil in some future movie.

I agree that they treated him very well in the movie, but I think it felt forced for him to know all those things about Winter Soldier (how to control him, that he killed Stark's parents etc.) so he could plan this evil scheming to destroy the Avengers from within.

I, as a comic fan, know that Zemo is a classic Captain villain, but in the movie, he is portrayed as a simple Sokovia soldier whose family was killed by the fight between Ultron and Avengers.

If they develop him more in the sequels, then this plot hole of he knowing too much about Winter Soldier that he was supposed to know will be explained, but I think it was confusing for the general audiences. If Zemo is going to return in the sequels, I think a more detailed explanation would be in order, in that interrogation scene in the end.

Another point that I would like to comment is about General Ross. It's amazing how everybody forgot his unethical actions in Incredible Hulk. He being appointed to be Secretary of State is ok, but I never saw Captain America to confront and challenge him about it when he was so high an might on the heroes about putting civil lives in danger. I think this fact would add another layer on why Captain was not agreeing with Ross initiative to begin with.

 

[reflection01]

What was forced about it? He explained it all. He used Black Widow's Wikileaks style dump of SHIELD and HYDRA data and went through everything meticulously looking for anything to use against the Avengers.

In a film universe in which a man who seemingly hangs out all the time develops new tech every day and a man can go from the size of an ant to the size of 4 Hulks stacked on top of each other like Donkey Kongs, it's acceptable that a man could have enough smarts, time, and patience to decrypt enough files to find such information and develop a plan.

 

[Gold Guy]

So that was amazing. Wow.

Maybe this film can finally stop the "so many characters is a bad thing" discussion. This film had over 15 characters, and none of them were wasted (aside from maybe Martin Freeman's character). Heck, one thing I love about the MCU Avengers is that they're all likable, from Cap to Tony to Vision to Hawkeye. That's what really makes the film so great; when the characters have their debates, you're engrossed because you can empathize with both sides, and that final fight - man, easily the most brutal MCU film fight so far, and I don't just mean the punches.

I'm not gonna do a DC/Marvel comparison, but this film mainly works so well because you care about the characters a lot because of the course of many years and films.

The fights, like in Winter Soldier, are brutal, and I love them. You feel every blow. These characters can hit hard!

Like I said, all the characters are great, so I'll mostly discuss the new ones. Holland was great as Peter, showing some of that Parker-awkwardness. Also, that scene where he catches Winter Soldier's punch? YES! Boseman was also great as Panther. His silent fury was palpable, and his accent was really well done.

Zemo wasn't what I was expecting, but his overall plan was interesting, if not a bit too Aizen-ish. I'm hoping we seem him lead the Masters of Evil eventually, though.

The airport sequence was worth the hype. They said it couodn't be done; a large scale battle with over ten combatants. And they pulled it off. The fight is fun, fun, fun, and quite the spectacle. Every character gets to use their abilities in interesting and sometimes new ways, and their personalities never get lose in the action, unlike Transformers.

I also admire that the film doesn't necessarily have a super-happy ending. Some of those emotional scars will take a while to heal.

Small notes: I'm glad they acknowledged Iron Man 3, and Thor and Hulk's absence. Things like that make me happy. Also, not a fan of the Steve and Sharon romance. Eh.

But overall, great movie. Now on to Dr. Strange.

 

[hobbyfan]

Went & saw it today.

Yeah, it's better than "Dawn of Justice", but that wasn't too hard. However, it makes the same mistake "Dawn" does in that the action stops for a few minutes just to have Tony drop in on Peter Parker and a youthful looking Aunt May (Marisa Tomei is still hot!). Tom Holland plays Peter/Spidey as somewhere in between the classic teenage webhead of yore and the insufferable, too-chatty-for-his-own-good goof from Ultimate Spider-Man. The latter version I can do without, thank you.

IIRC, Helmut Zemo was of German or Austrian descent in the books, so of course his nationality is changed, using something from "Age of Ultron" as motivation for his little game of human chess. Something tells me Bucky will return in "Black Panther", but what role he plays is open to conjecture.

Chadwick Boseman absolutely nailed T'Challa. 'Nuff said.

So they're claiming Bucky killed Tony's parents whilst under the control of Hydra?? Was that the case in the books, too?

 

[kid rabbit]

I wished Zemo had put on his mask

 

[Crash]

I, as a comic fan, know that Zemo is a classic Captain villain, but in the movie, he is portrayed as a simple Sokovia soldier whose family was killed by the fight between Ultron and Avengers.

He was a Sokovian intelligence officer. That was mentioned once in an off-hand comment. So at least he the skill to sift through leaked HYDRA documents. Although it still seems like a huge coincidence/leap of logic that he was looking for, much less found the exact information that he did...

Zemo was neat. He just....wasn't the full Zemo. If certain characters had turned out to be...of I don't know...Thunderbolts, it may have been different. And that still may happen. But until then, yet another Marvel Villain that didn't live up their potential.

...Just like Crossbones. Sad how quickly that happened.

A lot of characters here, and a lot of really neat developments in those characters... But Falcon really managed to stand out to me! Awesome use of his powers. The wing-shields, especially. And his drone. What he name it? Red Hawk? I dunno. But his asking Widow to thank the drone, by name, was hilarious. As were a lot of his other quips. Come to think of it....as cool as this version of Spider Man was, I want a solo Falcon movie! Who's with me?

 

[Neo Yi]

Got back from seeing it yesterday and had an absolutely blast.

At first, I thought it was kind of bloated (inevitable with its numerous characters) and the Bucky Barnes subplot and the Iron Man vs. Cap story to be too detached until the end, but the more I think about, the more I realize what a miracle this film is. The fact that it managed to tell a competent, straightforward story without making it feel convoluted is amazing in its own right, but it's layered it in a way that it's easy to root for and against both Captain America and Iron Man.

If there's a bit of a biting flaw, it's that we see less of Cap's reasoning against the government registration than we do Iron Man's. Civil War made it clear - viciously over and over again - that Tony feels guilty for the cavalier attitude he's been sporting with his superheroing. The deaths he has sparked, the blame he frequently gets, the continuous guilt over his parents' loss that culminated in finding out Bucky murdered them and Steve did NOT tell him, and even the break up between him and Pepper (a resounding "noooooo" went off in my head; she has very good reasons for breaking up with Tony, but Pepperony is my biggest MCU ship, so "nooooo" XD) shows a man who has been broken several times over that yeah, he's totally gonna be Pro-Registry.

Captain America? Well, he's not without justification; the biggest example being HYDRA's sneaky infiltration over SHIELD back in Winter Soldier that sold the idea that even the government he used to work for cannot be trusted (granted, this isn't really SHIELD's fault, so depending on how you look at it, the reasoning behind Cap's Anti-Registry is even less sound), the other being Bucky himself. You can't blame Steve from trying to help his best friend: with Peggy especially now departed from the world, there is no one he can turn to; know to relate and familiarize in this new time than his companion. Bucky's also been brainwashed to commit high atrocities, which in itself debates how responsible he must be for the actions he's caused. But Steve's reasoning are honestly kind of flimsy compared to Iron Man. It delves into the question on whether one man's capture (Bucky) should be considered in order to save the rest of the population before he causes anymore harm. Bucky may not have intended to hurt out of his own free will, but he is not reliable as long as that "programming" inside of him is intact.

Buuuut I'm not vilifying Steve nor think he isn't without justification. That's what's so good about Civil War, both sides have their pros and cons: Tony may try to do what's right to minimize damage, but the pro-registry will be controlled and limited. What if they get into a situation that the government won't allow? That could make a worse situation even more chaotic. Not to mention Iron Man's hiring of Spider-Man, a boy who's only fifteen. Tony's not heartless and he tells the kid to back off when things are done, but it's a questionable move that the film clearly hints at. Stuff like that is just great because there is legitimate conflict on both sides and the fact that these characters understand their motives and backgrounds not only revs up the intensity, but reminds us how heartbreaking it all is. The Avengers are falling apart.

But this is why I love Marvel movies. Because even when they're all down, there is never a sense of cynicism to be found. The registration passes, but Captain America refuses to give up. He's at his lowest; possibly a criminal (oh, poor Ant-Man, will he ever see his daughter again? ...Maybe, he does have a sequel film coming), but he's still kind, friendly, and has a righteous sense of justice. He apologizes to Tony and trusts the man with a phone to call if he ever needs them. This man is now a fugitive and he still believes in the hope that things will work out and ties can be mended. I love it. I love the unending optimism Steve carries. This doesn't make him naive - he knows the consequences he has to suffer - but instead demonstrates his determination and willingness to always be a champion of hope and goodwill. And Tony goes out of his way to block Ross off and god, this movie! Even that scene where War Machine is about to fall as both Iron Man and Falcon going out of their way to help him despite being on opposite sides. There are hints of a third option even with the passing of the Pro-Registry, something that can affect future movies.

Civil War is a movie that beautifully explores the ramifications of superheroes and the negative impact they have on the world, but never dips into the "dark and edgy" cynicism that I despise. Marvel knows how to make a film that explores the negativity without ever making me feel depressed. Zemo did what Loki - a flippin' God-like being - couldn't do and broke the Avengers apart, but there's a light at the end even if things have changed, for better or worse.

Oh, right: Black Panther was amazing. Kudos on making him a third party with an arc of his own. Spider-Man was adorable and just needs a hug. The humor between him and Ant-Man is a bit out there during the Big Airport Battle Scene when the rest of the movie was significantly serious, but I don't care, I loved it. Also Vision in a dorky sweater, pfft.

I love this movie. It's a great movie.

 

[the greenman]

Watched this yesterday, and kinda needed time to collect my thoughts. I will say, this is Avengers 2 imho. Zemo was the perfect villain, even going so far to put in jumpscares every time he appeared, or causing a sense of mystery and dread. Most importantly they gave him a simplific motivation.

The rivalry between Tony and Steve was perfect. I love the footage of Hulk tearing down a skyscrapper and we get a shot of Natasha's reaction. Also, Alfre Woodard shouldve been Amanda Waller, just saying. I almost expected Picard facepalms all around in that scene. Black Panther's cameo one upped WW's in BvS, and actually what I wouldve prefered from her.

I'm not going to gush over Spidey until we get a full film, but a good start. Still don't care for Stark helping him so much, but I didn't mind it too much. All in all one of MCU's top 5 films.

Sent from my LGMS323 using Tapatalk

 

[Yojimbo]

Holy smokes, that was a thriller to say the least. Russos really topped themselves with this one. I'm a lot less worried about the Russos helming the next two Avengers movies.

-What I liked

I just loved Black Panther and Spider-Man. They fit into the story and it never felt they were forced in.

BP had a complete story start to finish. He went from the hesitant diplomat, revenge driven warrior, to being the outsider realizing the truth and stopping Zemo from completing his plan and killing himself, to giving Bucky asylum while a cure is worked on. It's a shame T'Chaka died but there are ways to explore the history of the mantle. But equally, it will fun to see what the BP solo will explore. Points for acknowledging the stolen Vibranium that Ultron in turn stole.

Spider-Man, pure awesome. Dug his 'retro tech' and rambling. So he was Spidey for six months. Glad that was clear. YT footage was neat. Marissa Tomei. Hmm. Nothing against her but still thinking "Wow, so this is Aunt May now!" Tony and Peter definitely had great scenes and chemistry together. Though I dunno about Tony being a mentor and using a child as a soldier but...we'll see what happens. The connection Steve made with him was cool. I loved how he was geeking out at the airport battle.

The bigger surprise was the great pairing with Falcon and Bucky. The 'can you move your seat' in the Beetle and 'you couldn't do that earlier?' at the airport was some of the funniest bits. As was when they were giving props to Steve after the kiss.

Ant-Man was also a joy to see. No real answers on his status post-Ant-Man other than he was tested the Giant-Man mode once in the lab. Touching Steve was hilarious. The fight with Black Widow, riding the arrow, "I'm your conscience," Giant-Man, the Empire Strikes Back takedown, and Tony's "Who are you?" -- loved it all.

Broadly, this interpretation of Zemo was a nice chance of pace. Usually it's an over the top supervillain with a massive army -- Loki and the Chitauri, Killian and A.I.M., Pierce and HYDRA, Strucker and HYDRA, Ultron and his drones, etc. But here, just one man who lost his family. It was an excellent twist that the encrypted S.H.I.E.L.D. files that Natasha dumped onto the Internet was Zemo's ammunition here. It made total sense but you were sort of led to believe he was going to activate the super soldiers and instead he killed them all. It was just one man, albeit with covert military experience and motive, with no powers or super suit or army. One man tore the Avengers apart. I was concerned he would be the weakpoint of the movie and lost in the story, but glad to be wrong. He just might be one of the best MCU villains yet.

The truth about Howard and Maria's deaths was gut wrenching. Just hearing Howard trying to plead with Winter Soldier after recognizing him as Barnes. Uh. I thought maybe he shot their car from afar and it crashed. But for it to be him, in brainwash mode, killing them with his bare hands. Heart breaking. But this movie was the right time to reveal it completely and there is a bit of full circle after it was first mentioned/seeded in the first Iron Man movie. And I doubt this is the last time we'll see Howard.

They still figure out cool new ways to suit up Tony. The wrist watch gauntlet thing was cool by itself but then the James Bond-ish helicopter thing was oh, so dope.

Tony Stank! LMAO. Just when you're wondering when Stan Lee is going to show up.

-Other stuff that I did not take as a negative/positive but I was like "huh?" or "meh"

The MIT scene. It did clear up a missing piece of the Stark backstory, introduce Maria other than the one tie-in comic cameo -- the everybody gets a grant and the guy with the hot dog idea seemed oddly executed.

A grieving mom caused Civil War. Great way to start Mother's Day weekend. Ok ok, it was Tony's ego and guilt but still...he should have arrested himself.

Tony and Pepper taking a break. Yeah, they acknowledged her negative reaction to Tony suiting up after IM3 and blowing up the suits -- but I guess that's how they'll write her out of future appearances but still exist in the MCU like Dr. Foster.

So for x amount of time, the U.S. government had a top secret underwater superpower prison and had no one locked up in it until this movie?

Hawkeye being Hawkeye.

Everett Ross was introduced and that was about it.

Steve pulling a 'drop the mic' and leaving his shield with Tony.

-What I didn't like OR am nitpicking

1. It was a little unclear but I guess after Natasha told Tony to watch his back and left the New Avengers facility, she went off grid on her own a la Hulk?

2. The December 16, 1991 video tape -- so there was a live traffic camera on some boondocks road on Long Island recording the death of the Starks? Were there cameras back then? And WS or HYDRA went to the trouble of finding that video tape?

3. What was Howard doing with experimental Super Soldier Serum in his trunk? I thought all of Steve's blood was used or destroyed? I guess that didn't stop him from trying to replicate it for a little under 50 years and we saw it's negative side effects in play.

4. So it was just a coincidence that the Lagos incident happened just when Zemo found the old HYDRA colonel in Cleveland? Or how did Zemo know Dr. Broussard was the physician assigned to evaluate Bucky in Berlin? Or even, how did he know Iron Man was going to end up in Siberia to see the video tape?

5. No mention of Fury or Hill.

6. Vision taking the shot at Falcon and crippling War Machine instead. What possessed him to take do something so stupid. It's not like they cleared airspace around that airport or did they? I recall they evacuated the airport. If not them, he could have shot down a plane. And he didn't even get any punishment for it. I thought Vision was the weakpoint of the movie. One of the characters were bound to have a poor showing I suppose.

7. I'm definitely Team Cap. Ross was clearly clouding the argument by showing footage of those past incidents. If they waited for UN approval, the Chitauri would have taken New York City and the east coast. HYDRA would have assassinated everyone with Project Insight. Tony and Bruce may not have made Ultron but I suspect Strucker would have anyway and the same series of events would play out. Adding a layer of government oversight and forcing supers to register or be branded a criminal vigilante is a joke. But in the back of my mind, it could have been avoided if the Avengers had a PR or government liaison before hand. It didn't sound like they were communicating and coordinating with anyone -- just going into places like Lagos. Not to say the least Ross was a hypocrite - he sent Army forces onto a college campus and that led to chaos. He brought in and influenced the creation of Abomination who trashed Harlem real good. But I'm sure that got all covered up nice and neat.

8. While Zemo made it out alive, yes the main villain in a MCU movie lived -- Rumlow's suicide was such a waste. I wished they did something else like they get the charges off him at the last second but he still tries to detonate it and then the same thing with Wanda trying to TK it into the sky but blows the building.

9. Vision was wrong about Iron Man being around for 8 years. There was a clear repair to the timeline post Phase 1 with certain movies overlapping. Basically, not 2008, Vision. 2010. So 6 years.

-End credits teasers

1. Hmm. So T'Challa gave Steve and his allies asylum in Wakanda while the scientists work on a way to erase the HYDRA programming in Bucky. I wonder though, does this mean Steve, Sam, Scott, Clint, and Wanda are staying put in Wakanda or are they still going to operate under the radar sort of like S.H.I.E.L.D. does -- and there will technically be two teams of Avengers. They are all still technically criminals and at least Ross wants them imprisoned -- at this point, it doesn't seem like Tony is going to pursue them. Still, it was cool to see some visual confirmation that Wakanda retains the comic roots of technological advancement.

2. Interesting the end tag was "Spider-Man will return" and no one else. But the second teaser was pretty cool. I was expecting a lead-in to Dr. Strange in media res like the Civil War excerpt in Ant-Man. It was so awesome to see the Spider-Signal. Looks like it's a bit more than that, like a projected virtual desktop like how Tony has. Like I said before, Peter/Spidey was a joy in this movie and I'm looking even more forward to Homecoming. The Steve and Ant-Man nod was hilarious. One last laugh.

 

[reflection01]

I didn't think of it until your post, Yojimbo, but it's fitting that the news the Agent Carter is not likely to return for Season 3 came before we saw Howard Stark's death and Peggy Carter's funeral along with Vision taking on Jarvis' persona. Civil War was kind of an epilogue to Agent Carter. I feel better about saying goodbye to those characters.

Completely agree that Zemo as the villain was a nice change of pace from the "over the top supervillain and a massive army." It's like MCU films took a lesson from Marvel TV. We saw with Fisk, Kilgrave, and Frost how effective one smart supervillain could be. I'm also happy they left him alive and how they did it with T'Challa not allowing him to kill himself.

 

[Young Justice]

What was forced about it? He explained it all. He used Black Widow's Wikileaks style dump of SHIELD and HYDRA data and went through everything meticulously looking for anything to use against the Avengers.

In a film universe in which a man who seemingly hangs out all the time develops new tech every day and a man can go from the size of an ant to the size of 4 Hulks stacked on top of each other like Donkey Kongs, it's acceptable that a man could have enough smarts, time, and patience to decrypt enough files to find such information and develop a plan.

I understand your point, but it didn't feel like that to me. If this knowledge were public, why Stark wouldn't know that his parents were murdered? Stark would be the first one to take all those Shield files and would decrypt them. He would have the means, the motive and the time to do it. He always wants to have the greater amount of knowledge possible. He wouldn't sit on a pile of classified Shield and Hydra documents and not see for himself what they were.

I think showing that Zemo was the son o a high profile Hydra member (Baron Zemo) would be enough to explain how he got all that knowledge.

 

[Yojimbo]

One thing I sort of realized, if Tony was keeping tabs on Spider-Man and the fact he chose him -- makes you wonder who else he's keeping tabs on... in a way, I guess that keeps Iron Man relevant and sets the stage for one way new superheroes could be introduced in the future.

I understand your point, but it didn't feel like that to me. If this knowledge were public, why Stark wouldn't know that his parents were murdered? Stark would be the first one to take all those Shield files and would decrypt them. He would have the means, the motive and the time to do it. He always wants to have the greater amount of knowledge possible. He wouldn't sit on a pile of classified Shield and Hydra documents and not see for himself what they were.

I looked at it as HYDRA had the one copy of the truth of the events the camera footage on VHS and it was locked up in the Siberia base. It didn't sound like S.H.I.E.L.D. knew they were killed by the Winter Soldier. I thought when Steve admitted he knew, it was just because he had an inkling of what really happened because Zola was trolling him about it in the underground room in TWS. Zola would have known because he's been to that base in the past to work on Bucky and presumably repairs over the decades. Pity, he didn't get a cameo in those Siberia flashbacks in this movie.

EDIT: Markus and McFeely on no Nick Fury.

5/11: Added a poll. D'oh!

 

[reflection01]

I am curious if Tony has access to street cameras in Hell's Kitchen. Interactions between Tony and Jessica Jones would be gold.

 

[Young Justice]

I looked at it as HYDRA had the one copy of the truth of the events the camera footage on VHS and it was locked up in the Siberia base. It didn't sound like S.H.I.E.L.D. knew they were killed by the Winter Soldier. I thought when Steve admitted he knew, it was just because he had an inkling of what really happened because Zola was trolling him about it in the underground room in TWS. Zola would have known because he's been to that base in the past to work on Bucky and presumably repairs over the decades. Pity, he didn't get a cameo in those Siberia flashbacks in this movie.

That's exactly my point on how Zemo would have to be well connected in HYDRA organization to know how to architect this whole scheme to destroy the Avengers from within. The movie never explained that he was that well connected. He was a common intelligence officer.

We know the importance of the Zemo name in the Marvel mythos. The general audience don't.

 

[Yojimbo]

That's exactly my point on how Zemo would have to be well connected in HYDRA organization to know how to architect this whole scheme to destroy the Avengers from within. The movie never explained that he was that well connected. He was a common intelligence officer.

I swear they said he was in an elite black ops squad. He was probably experienced/taught in taking down regimes and applied that to the Avengers. But even that aside, probably going through the files with the red book probably helping him fill in some blanks in his plan that he crafted from going over encrypted S.H.I.E.L.D. files for a little over a year. It was likely in the Colonel's hidden wall files that confirmed Zemo's suspicions that the Winter Soldier killed the Starks.

But I admit, they do leave a bit much for the audience to infer.

EDIT: Supposed concept art for Zemo.

 

[hobbyfan]

Well, between an early scene in the movie and a quick bit on Agents of SHIELD, it seems Marvel Studios knew Agent Carter wouldn't return, and it was confirmed.